New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[tazman]

tazman... The rifle was in the shade of the umbrella the whole time I shot all the spots and the whole time I was at the table setting up.
The rifle was in direct sunlight for about 12 minutes as I loaded the cart, posted the target and pushed the cart to the 50 yd. line. That's the whole time, no more till I was done & went back to the shop.

It's been so long since I retired and put my electrical instruments away that I forgot I had a multi-meter that reads from a thermocouple either C or F.

Okay. I am at a loss here. Looks like the temperature may be a false alarm.
In any case, did you fire the cold bore shot at a separate target?

[1066]

One of the problems that's often overlooked with rimfire when shooting for accuracy, especially in colder weather is the effect of condensation in the barrel between shots. This is why a few sighters/warmers/foulers should be shot immediately before a string to count. Shooting a round through a cold barrel and leaving it for a few minutes will result in a film of condensation in the inside of the barrel - this acts similar to surplus lubrication for the next shot. If a steady cadence of shots is kept up, one every two or three minutes, there's not time for the condensation to form.

If you shoot a shot with a cold barrel and leave it for 5-10 minutes then push a dry patch through you will feel it damp.

[OS OK]

Okay. I am at a loss here. Looks like the temperature may be a false alarm.
In any case, did you fire the cold bore shot at a separate target?

No taz...I fired it on this last target, it ended up about 1.5" out at 3:00. Depending on brand of ammo, this cold bore shot has moved from 7:00 around to 2:00 in a general sense.
There have been days when I haven't had the cold bore shot follow this pattern, though not often...
Take last Sunday, CB shot is at 12:00 within the warmer spot, the rest of them just started 'associating' right off the bat instead of walking in from outside the spot.



I think dverna... is on to something that explains it, "First shot out of group seems more of a lubed cast bullet issue."

It leaves me with the question...'since we shoot dirty barrels, why does the lube left in the barrel change overnight when we get them out and shoot and see this phenomena?
Is it something about the lube that was laid in the barrel changes in a certain time after shooting?
I don't get it. A dirty barrel is a dirty barrel.

If I am to do the cold barrel test...¿How long do we wait between shots in order to call it a 'cold barrel'?
There was a time Harry Tobin called as I was changing targets between sets, we talked for 2 hours and when I went back to the bench the rifle shot like I hadn't quit.
There was 'no cold bore shot' after a 2 hour cooling.

Thinking back, I don't think the rifle was in the shade, I haven't used the umbrella regularly since early December...the rifle may have taken on the heat from the sun and remained warm enough...I don't know, need more perspective about cold bore shots.

EDIT...@ 1066... We must have been working this post at the same time. I didn't ignore your comments, I didn't see them till I posted.
You make good points, I need to consider them and mull just a bit.

[tazman]

One of the problems that's often overlooked with rimfire when shooting for accuracy, especially in colder weather is the effect of condensation in the barrel between shots. This is why a few sighters/warmers/foulers should be shot immediately before a string to count. Shooting a round through a cold barrel and leaving it for a few minutes will result in a film of condensation in the inside of the barrel - this acts similar to surplus lubrication for the next shot. If a steady cadence of shots is kept up, one every two or three minutes, there's not time for the condensation to form.

If you shoot a shot with a cold barrel and leave it for 5-10 minutes then push a dry patch through you will feel it damp.

Interesting information. I wasn't aware of that.
Would it take more than a single shot to remove the condensation?

OS OK---I am wondering(always a bad idea) about that cold bore shot and the conditions of the barrel.
Often, I don't clean the barrel since I am going to use the same ammo later.
I am wondering about the position of the cold bore shot when the barrel is left "dirty" as opposed to a barrel that has been cleaned thoroughly?

I know what happens with my centerfire rifles and it is completely predictable but I have never paid attention to this aspect with my rimfire rifles.

[OS OK]

tazman...we have had these discussions about shooting a cleaned or dirty barrel, I think the consensus was shoot the dirty one, I'm not sure.

There was a time early on when I started that I would clean the barrel with a wet patch and then a couple dry patches. Someone here convinced me to stop with the wet patch and just poke a dry patch through...so I changed.
Later in another discussion, the dry patch was frowned on and I started cleaning chamber only with a wet .17cal mop until I suspected the group opening from too dirty of a barrel condition or I changed ammo types (copper washed to bare wax lubed lead or vise versa) and then I'd wet patch again to start a new series of targets shot with a dirty barrel.
It's been a little nutty but it's been a great learning curve at the same time.

All I think I can say is... "I 'think I know' this:"
-If I run a brass brush in the bore, it takes about 25+ shots for the barrel to settle down.
-If I run a wet patch, it takes 10+ shots to settle...
-If I run a dry patch, it takes 10 or less to settle...
-If I run nothing...shoot a dirty barrel, it settles in the 5 shots.

But...going back through my pictures of these targets & reading the notes about chamber and barrel condition, I can't find one instance where this phenomena doesn't happen...I think the only place I haven't seen the CB shot land is between 10:00 & 12:00, but...give that time and I'm certain that'll change too.

What does all this mean & is it valid information....heheee...I haven't the slightest idea this morning. I need another cuppa-joe.

[1066]

Interesting information. I wasn't aware of that.
Would it take more than a single shot to remove the condensation?

No, one shot would clear any condensation but it would soon start to form again - Think about taking a cold beer from the fridge on a warm day or even a blow torch of a bit of copper pipe, anywhere you have a temperature gradient and sufficient humidity, condensation will occur. The problem with rimfire is the round, even with premium quality ammunition, it likes consistency. Also, as has been said, a single shot or two with a .22lr does very little to heat the barrel so not hot enough either stop condensation forming or dry it off quickly as it would with a centrefire.

[tazman]

OS OK-----When shooting for group, you are going to be shooting a dirty barrel after the first shot unless you clean after every shot(highly impractical). Trying to get conditions in the barrel consistent is why we shoot warmers.
Getting consistent ammunition and form are going to do more for groups than barrel cleaning. Particularly if you are not going to be consistently shooting a cold barrel.
Learning what procedures your rifle likes is always a good idea. That way you can form a habit to give you your best accuracy on a consistent basis.
Trial and observation.
Seeing all the information in the targets you saved over time may show you a pattern. Things will always change as the barrel wears in and your technique gets more consistent.
If we could always follow a single pattern and have everything be the same without changing, things would not be so interesting.

[OS OK]

tazman... You are so right, I agree 100%.

I am so thankful that I started this thread last Nov. because if I hadn't...I'd still be groping around trying to figure things out and my level of understanding of many things surrounding this bench shooting would not be as clear or in such depth.
Too...I realize I have as far to go as I have come thus far.

It's funny, this term we use...'dirty barrel'.
Just for giggles, yesterday before I closed the shop and came upstairs to post my experiment, I took a bore light and shined it into the breach as I looked into the muzzle.
I wanted to see exactly what my 'dirty barrel' actually looked like. I've seen the carbon that comes out from pushing a dry patch and all the more goop & such from a wet patch so I had it in my mind that this barrel is going to look like a sewer pipe....quite the contrary.

I peered down the muzzle and that 'dirty barrel' was shining like a diamond in a goat's butt! That took me back some, I expected to see something like a dirty pistol barrel with un-burned sooty powder and such left behind and I didn't see this.

So many things I have taken for granted in the past have changed in this past year, all I had to do is really start looking into things and finding out first hand...and of course having a lot of help from my friends.

[tazman]

The biggest thing that sticks out at me, when looking back at your targets, is your improvement in your technique. Your groups are getting more round and far less strung out in any direction as well as being smaller.
Better sights and rest will help with that but you still have to aim and do the shooting.
Go back and look at the progression and you can easily see it.

[303Guy]

Talking about peering into the bore I now realized that this new ammo I'm shooting leaves granules in the bore. Previously I was seeing grey dust coating the bore and it came out as a dust with the bronze brush.

[tazman]

Talking about peering into the bore I now realized that this new ammo I'm shooting leaves granules in the bore. Previously I was seeing grey dust coating the bore and it came out as a dust with the bronze brush.

Is it making any difference to your groups?
I have to admit I haven't looked to see if any of the ammo I tried leaves any residue behind.
I should probably check that nest trip with the rifles.

[OS OK]

303guy... Didn't you say you were building a peep style rear assembly for one of your rifles?
If so . . . didn't you say you were concerned with finding a front globe assembly? Limited resources over there or something?

I may be able to help with that front assembly...let me know something. OK?

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind consideration. Yes, I've been looking for a front assembly but not finding anything. I thought I might be able to make something but I only have a lathe. I would be most appreciative of your help.

Today I measured up and drew the profile for my rear assembly mounting. I'm not sure how high the aperture will end up being above the bore. It looks to be around 1.75" if I fit it as low as possible without cutting into the stock. Once again, having only a lathe is going to be tricky. I do have a crude means of milling using a vertical slide mounted in place of the tool post and holding the cutter in the chuck. I can see it being quite a challenge though but I did once make a rail using a drill press and a cross travel vice. I must show you a photo of what I did. That was a long time ago when the drill press was all I had.

So given that the minimum height of the aperture will be 1.75" or thereabouts, would that be a problem with standard front globe arrangements?

Looking at this rear sight, I see it's Russian. I think I mentioned it some time back.

Home made Lee Enfield scope mount. It's soldered onto the action. The aluminum rail is what I milled in the drill press.

[OS OK]

303Guy... Take a look over at Brownells page here. You have some options for mounting and there you can see the height above the bore or barrel top however they measure it.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...067-20247.aspx

Let me know what you find or what exact unit you want.

You can drop me your address in a private message and I can get a hold of them and see if they'll ship down there.
Do you know of any restrictions in place that'd make Brownell's balk at shipping there?

Take a look at this page too...seems there is an endless amount of methods to mount the sight, might give you some ideas and that'll make a difference in what you select at Brownells.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=glo...ages&ia=images

[303Guy]

Thank you kindly, OS OK. Greatly appreciated. I now feel confident to go ahead with my rear sight base, knowing what is out there and how it is done.

There won't be any problems receiving shipped items but shipping out from the US could be a problem if the goods are labeled as gun parts. We'll address that one when the time comes. I may only need the globe inserts - I could conceivably make the holder if shipping is a problem. The inserts do not need to be declared as gun parts.

[OS OK]

Thank you kindly, OS OK. Greatly appreciated. I now feel confident to go ahead with my rear sight base, knowing what is out there and how it is done.

There won't be any problems receiving shipped items but shipping out from the US could be a problem if the goods are labeled as gun parts. We'll address that one when the time comes. I may only need the globe inserts - I could conceivably make the holder if shipping is a problem. The inserts do not need to be declared as gun parts.

Take a look at those links...decide which globe assembly you need, decide on the mounting too. There are several ways to go but the Peep rear iris needs to be the same distance off the bore when it's adjusted midway between elevations (up & down).

Let me know and send your address in a DM.

[OS OK]

Getting ready for the NEXT CHAPTER in this thread...

After experimenting now for so long & with so many different cheek riser configurations...I think the 'carpenters pencil' has been the best solution for a height increase of the comb and the best shape that'll index repeatedly under my cheek bone.
I shaped this from a piece of oak, it's sturdy and should last...it's a tad-bit taller than the pencil...



It is fastened to the comb with two wood screws, they have to be loosened, the front-most removed & the riser swung to the left or right to remove the bolt. Other than that, this seems like a good cheek rest now...



I did not replace that little piece of plastic that I was indexing my lip to before settling down against the riser but I don't think I need that anymore. I am starting to have a system now that repeats each time I embrace the but-stock and start into the shooting position.



These targets, I think will be the last of THIS CHAPTER of this thread where so much has transpired, so much accomplished, so much information shared by so many helpful friends...these targets are not so much to admire for my final groups but they represent the last of my experimenting/sorting with affordable ammo...
Yesterday I moved the rear sight to the rear notch of the mounting bar, about 1.5" closer to my eye on the receiver to see just what difference that might make...it allows a smaller setting of the iris before the 'lint look' appears but I was looking for that position to aid in keeping the POA more steady...I didn't notice that.



I had hopes of leaving this Aguila HP ammo behind along with a couple of target sets showing that it can make 1" groups or less but it was not to be yesterday.



SO...what is the Next chapter?

It will be the Tenex Ammo...Will it harmonically get along with the MKII...Will the nut behind the trigger be able to make it group regularly, session to session?
I can't say just yet...the ammo is due to be delivered today, maybe by Wednesday I'll be able to take a little trip off the mountain and fetch it?

I am amazed at how this rifle has changed from when I first opened the box...having that Junior sized plastic stock & the overall lightweight feel...



to what it is now...it is correct for my length of pull, the riser I think is right...I have a good adjustable rest and rear slider bag...
"Let us see what we will see in the coming weeks ahead?"



hahaaa . . . "WEATHER PERMITTING of course!"

[tazman]

Watching with interest.

[1066]

Watching with interest.

+1 Me too.

[303Guy]

Take a look at those links...decide which globe assembly you need, decide on the mounting too. There are several ways to go but the Peep rear iris needs to be the same distance off the bore when it's adjusted midway between elevations (up & down).

Let me know and send your address in a DM.

Thanks again. Yes, I looked at those links, thanks. I've refined my base mount drawing and I think I have the aperture height worked out. I need to set up the rifle and double check everything. I'll DM you as soon as I know what I need. I see I can use a standard off the shelf front globe assembly and make a mount to suite.

It's been a lot of fun. Looking forward to your next chapter!