New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[303Guy]

Trigger! I have difficulty letting off a round without disturbing my aim. I've mentioned my 512 trigger being so light and crisp that I only needed to twitch my finger to let it off. I should dress that trigger and put it it into the 510. I should also dress the new 512 trigger to get it lighter. I don't enjoy shooting that rifle now because the trigger is too stiff. The best trigger I have is on my dad's 22 Mauser. Unfortunately that gun has a rust damaged bore and did not shoot well at all so I put it away. It's a shame - that rifle was pretty accurate. Anyway, I'm now wondering just how much influence the trigger has on my shooting.

I've mentioned this before too, that I always focus on the target and not the front sight. I have tried recently but find I can't. It hurts my eyes but when I still could focus on the front sight I still found it better for me for some reason. Everyone else focuses on the front sight! Maybe I should find myself a pair of weak reading glasses with a focal range of the front sight.

[OS OK]

Twas a pretty fair day...

I made a stick-on for that smaller globe that gave me the same size hole as I had in the globe that was too large in OD...I like this much better.
This picture shows what I really see for a change, I finally figured out how to get a picture, I opened the iris some so the iris is larger than what I adjust for shooting but it'll give you an idea anyway...



I cleaned the barrel with a wet mop and dried it and the chamber and on the first spot after the warmers I thought I was going to have an extremely good day...that is only 1/32" over a 1/2" group. Man...that feels like an accomplishment. But it didn't last the day.



I had several good groups going and then I'd have that one or two rounds that just had to go somewhere else...today I was pleased that I could manage NOT to PEEK at that spot before sending the round. For me that's saying something right there.



Even got a string in that second session...I thought I was done with strings!
Well...no complaints, I had a fine day of shooting and good cold beers...I guess that's a win-win deal.

[303Guy]

That's looking very good. Interesting that # 2
target again. Second time around spoiled by a flyer. And target # 6 - again one way out of group flyer. Those flyers don't count. Did you notice a difference in muzzle report? Not that powder charge velocity is the only possible cause but at least it's discernable.

[dverna]

That's looking very good. Interesting that # 3 target again. Second time around spoiled by a flyer. And target # 6 - again one way out of group flyer. Those flyers don't count. Did you notice a difference in muzzle report? Not that powder charge velocity is the only possible cause but at least it's discernable.

Fliers count unless they are called (flinch, poor trigger release, holding breath too long etc). That is why all the MOA "guarantees" are with 3 shot groups. Any rifle and ammunition will shoot 1 MOA given enough rounds downrange if "fliers" that are inherent in the gun/ammo are ignored.

[OS OK]

303Guy... No I didn't notice a difference in the report. I rarely do with this ammo...when I do, it sounds slightly muffled, such a little difference in that sharp crack that it leaves me wondering if I really did hear a difference. I think I get into a tunnel vision mode as I shoot and the sound level...I don't think is something I consciously monitor?

What I see is the 'mean center' of those groups moving around on the spot. They move much less than when I started learning this sight system, but they do move and that concerns me.
I believe that my inconsistent cheek weld is doing this? There are other factors that could as well but as far as percentages of each possibility go, I think it is me.

I just received confirmation of that Tenex shipment to my FFL.
This should be the game changer...a consistent ammo, a high quality ammo should make it glaringly obvious when I make the mistake, when it's me doing the fliers.
(What should we call a 'shooter induced flier' How's about...a 'Shoo'Flier' or 'Shoo'Fly' ?)
I'm not saying that the Tenex is going to be a 'one hole' ammo in this MKII, that will have to be seen yet...I am saying that whatever the capabilities of the Tenex is, it will be much more consistent than this Aguila.
I hope it will be the 'finger pointer' ... it'll point mistakes at either Me, the Rifle or the Ammo.

[OS OK]

Fliers count unless they are called (flinch, poor trigger release, holding breath too long etc). That is why all the MOA "guarantees" are with 3 shot groups. Any rifle and ammunition will shoot 1 MOA given enough rounds downrange if "fliers" that are inherent in the gun/ammo are ignored.

What your saying here is one of the little questions that has been wandering around in the back of my mind.
This being a fact has made me wonder 'if' these inconsistent rounds could be helping to make a small grouping, through happenstance... as much as deterring from that small grouping?

The end result being a 'crap shoot' every time I release a round...hmmmm? Think about that?

[tazman]

I know that changing to the Eley Tenex took me from about .75 with most good ammo to about .5 consistently.
I tried weighing the different ammo batches that I had on hand. Most had variances of up to a grain differences cartridge to cartridge. The Tenex all weighed the same. Evey round within a tenth of a grain as close as I could measure. Most didn't show ANY difference in weight.
The only other ammo I tried that was this good was Lapua Center X. It shot just as well as the Eley but was more expensive.
I have never had a flyer with the Tenex ammo or the Center X, at least none that I didn't know where it came from. Other ammo, I occasionally get one where I have no idea where it came from.
I haven't tried every brand and type of ammo. It just isn't available at the moment and I couldn't afford to experiment that much even if it was.
I just go with the reputation of the high end stuff and experiment with what I can get my hands on. Luckily, I have found some ammo, that isn't too expensive, that shoots well in my rifles. Makes for really good practice ammo.


OS OK---- Have you considered the wandering impact point to be a result of barrel temperature changes? As the barrel heats up or cools off, depending on how long the rifle has been outside in the shooting conditions, the changes due to temperature may have some effect.
Watch for the direction of movement as you progress through the strings and see if you can predict what is happening in that regard as things change.
The barrel will warm as the rounds count builds, causing possible movement of the impact point.
I have at least one rifle where this happens consistently.
Where I am currently, taking the rifle and ammo from indoors to outside is going to cause large temperature swings. I don't really know how long it would take for the rifle and ammo to reach ambient temperature. The firing strings introduces further temperature changes in parts of the rifle, possibly causing stresses to build up.

[tazman]

What your saying here is one of the little questions that has been wandering around in the back of my mind.
This being a fact has made me wonder 'if' these inconsistent rounds could be helping to make a small grouping, through happenstance... as much as deterring from that small grouping?

The end result being a 'crap shoot' every time I release a round...hmmmm? Think about that?

Undoubtedly, why some groups are smaller than others. Sometimes all the stars line up and the groups get smaller.
It isn't all science. Sometimes it is just luck. That's why we shoot lots of groups and look at the overall picture.

[OS OK]

I have been monitoring the barrel temp. with my hand and trying to 'feel' the heat increase. It is barely there back in the hot months we have had here. That was Sept. & early Dec.
The heat is not there.
Now, recently in these practices the ambient temp. has been mid 40's to mid 50's...that barrel gives no 'feelable' temp increase. Perhaps I should start monitoring it for a while with my 'CheeeeePoChineeeeeeeSeee' infrared temp gauge?
Even this type of temp gauge doesn't read directly proportional, depending of the color and texture of the material it is pointed at along with the angle of the beam it will read differently.
I discovered this in trying to get temp readings on various moulds when they were in their 'perfect window' and raining casts. Another 'crap shoot' type effort....

[tazman]

I have been monitoring the barrel temp. with my hand and trying to 'feel' the heat increase. It is barely there back in the hot months we have had here. That was Sept. & early Dec.
The heat is not there.
Now, recently in these practices the ambient temp. has been mid 40's to mid 50's...that barrel gives no 'feelable' temp increase. Perhaps I should start monitoring it for a while with my 'CheeeeePoChineeeeeeeSeee' infrared temp gauge?
Even this type of temp gauge doesn't read directly proportional, depending of the color and texture of the material it is pointed at along with the angle of the beam it will read differently.
I discovered this in trying to get temp readings on various moulds when they were in their 'perfect window' and raining casts. Another 'crap shoot' type effort....

I would expect the temperature changes of a rimfire rifle to be less obvious that a centerfire. I haven't measured them myself as I have no method for doing so that I trust.
In my centerfire rifles, the temperature changes and impact point movements because of that, are rather obvious. Not so much with 22lr. I do have impact point movement as I shoot long strings with some of my 22lr rifles. The progression can only be seen over several groups shot in a long string. When you look at all the groups shot at the same time, say 10 five shot groups, you can see it clearly.
I often wonder how groups would change if we only fired up to 3 shots, then let the rifle cool for a long period before firing it again.
Unfortunately, I am too impatient for that.
We have all seen that cold bore shot that goes someplace other than the rest of the group. I wonder what a string of cold bore shots would look like.

[OS OK]

That is a really good question taz... I wonder what a string of cold bore shots would look like.

That's worthy of finding out about.
Let me think about this and possibly a method of tracking barrel temp. using possibly a glass thermometer, I'm thinking of possibly putting a grease under the bulb of the glass thermometer to connect it to the receiver or just in front of the chamber and firing a string of shots with my 'crappo ammo' and firing them at the rate I normally hand feed a string for my groups.
So...that's two interesting experiments...got any ideas?

This is my thermometer for the PC oven, obviously it will not do but I can go to the hardware and buy one that will?
All I'm concerned about is connecting the glass bulb to the barrel with some type of grease or other flexible material that will transmit the barrel temp and cushion the bulb against shattering.

[tazman]

As to the grease, heat sink grease, used in computers to transfer heat from the computer chip to the heat sink in order to keep it cool would work. It should be available at any computer store that sells components to build computers. It is inexpensive and come in a very small tube.
It is sticky and would help hold the thermometer tube in place.

Since you have the patience and a close range, you could fire the first shot over a period of hours or days, if necessary, at a target spot used for nothing else.
If I didn't have to drive so far, I could do that myself. My range is 40 miles away, so I can't go there as often as I wish.

[OS OK]

tazman... I was thinking, since I am testing in rather cool weather, 20 minutes should be ample time to allow the barrel to bleed off the heat from firing.

If you agree, I could get these two test done in one long session, carefully aiming that first shot in the warmer spot.

In another test, I could shoot at my standard 'single shot' rate as I hand feed every shot, taking just enough time between spots to take a photo of the thermometer reading.

What do any of y'all think of these ideas?

EDIT: I'll be back online later today, I have to run around the mountain and get some of that heat grease and a thermometer.

[tazman]

Sounds like a plan to me. You can always change the parameters later if needed.

Might also be interesting to see what difference there was having warmer ammo as opposed to ambient temperature ammo as far as impact point.

[303Guy]

Fliers count unless they are called (flinch, poor trigger release, holding breath too long etc). That is why all the MOA "guarantees" are with 3 shot groups. Any rifle and ammunition will shoot 1 MOA given enough rounds downrange if "fliers" that are inherent in the gun/ammo are ignored.

For scoring and hunting yes, absolutely. They represent the real world, except that in hunting one doesn't get to call a flyer but those flyers sure count and are not acceptable. Then again does not one shoot a group when hunting. Only the first shot counts, flyer or not! But for casual target shooting like we are doing where we are trying to master our game, particularly our equipment, I'm inclined to give myself some slack on those nasty way outlyers because they represent either a bad round or something I did wrong. A tight nine shot group with one flyer tells me I'm getting something right.

Where I come unstuck is then I fire fifteen shots and ten of them make a nice cluster and five are scattered around. Were those me or my equipment? On the one hand I don't want to blame my equipment when I could be the problem and on the other hand I don't want to blame me when it could be the equipment - the ammo most likely. So I say yes, the ammo, rifle and me can do it. In short, I am encouraged by those ten rather than being discouraged by those five. But - I need to work on those five. In that regard, the one way off uncalled 'flyer' doesn't count - but only in that regard. That flyer still has to be resolved at some stage.

[tazman]

303Guy-- You make a good point. My biggest problem with 22lr is I suspect the ammunition is the culprit in most instances.
The reason I say this is, with my centerfire rifles, where I control the quality of the ammunition, I can consistently hold and shoot sub MOA. I am talking 1 inch groups or smaller at 200 yards with my 223 varminter. I do it too often to think I make the mistakes that cause the flyers with 22lr.
That and the fact that with the best, top end ammo, I don't have flyers that blow a group open.
When I am using my practice ammo, I disregard the flyers and consider the greatest number of shots as my group. I wish I could use that top end ammo for all my practice and competition. It just isn't possible, especially now.

I really admire what you and OS OK are dong with the open sights. I am simply incapable of shooting that equipment well. I have been that way my entire life. If I don't have a rest to steady myself and my equipment, my groups are more like patterns.

[OS OK]

Let's see what we can see here... Barrel temperature - Test 1

This first test will be me shooting the warmer spot and 5 more spots for group measurement, for barrel temperature & for time elapsed, just as I have been doing (except for all this added data).
But...dangit...I have a DISCLAIMER... When I set this multi-meter up with the thermocouple and tested it in the 'shade' of the early morning shop, I noticed that the barrel temperature was 69ºƒ.
I loaded the gear in the push cart and posted my target, then I pushed the cart out to the 50 yard line. The rifle had sat in the 'direct sunlight' for about 12 minutes as best as I can estimate.
By the time I had the rifle set up on the bench (in the shade of the umbrella) I noticed that the barrel had increased in temperature to 75ºƒ. This is my 'blunder for today' & whether or not this blunder fouls the test I'll leave that up to you boys to consider.



The ambient air temperature was 58ºƒ and I allowed that rifle to sit in the shade approximately 40 minutes and the barrel temperature did not drop before I started the test.
I set up the iPhone as a running timer, started it and then went to the 10 shot warmer target and proceded on to the next 5 spots without stopping for anything but a photo like the one below to note the time elapsed and the barrel temperature,
This photo was taken within a half minute after the 10 warmers...



From the warmer spot I went to the top middle target (working top to bottom, going left side to right) shot 5 rounds and immediately took a photo, this is the second spot shot...barrel temperature & time elapsed recorded...the temperature was reading 78ºƒ and toggled back to the 77ºƒ just as I snapped the photo.



I did this the same spot for spot until I had finished all 6 spots...this is the last picture showing total temperature climb in the barrel and total time elapsed in shooting the 6 spots...



From here I referenced all the photos and recorded the group size/ barrel temperature/ and time elapsed beside each spot on the paper. Below is that target session...



After the 10 warmer shots it looks like I spend aproximately 3 minutes on each spot.
Thinking about this blunder I made, I left the rifle in the direct sunlight when I returned to the shop, seems as though it sat there for about an hour (guessing) as I tended to the target marking and a couple other things.
This is the maximum temperature the barrel went up to in that time lapse and in ambient air of about 59-60ºƒ by this time in the afternoon.
The end of the thermocouple is bent 90º and poked down in the threaded hole for a scope base mount and it is directly above the forcing cone of the bore. If any place on the barrel could show us any temperature readings I suspected that this hole would be the place.
Under the chamber there at the front of the receiver is the 'front-most' barrel contact with the stock and it is solid...I did not think that wrapping this electrical tape there would affect the barrel harmonics in the least.



SO that's the whole thing wrapped up nice and neat with an official blunder to consider. What do you boys think about this?

[tazman]

Not certain it would matter. If you have an umbrella you could fasten some way so it would shade the rifle and shooting area, you could eliminate any heat from sunlight on the barrel.
Other than that, the setup looks good.
What is that temperature gauge?
I haven't seen one like that.

[OS OK]

tazman... The rifle was in the shade of the umbrella the whole time I shot all the spots and the whole time I was at the table setting up.
The rifle was in direct sunlight for about 12 minutes as I loaded the cart, posted the target and pushed the cart to the 50 yd. line. That's the whole time, no more till I was done & went back to the shop.

It's been so long since I retired and put my electrical instruments away that I forgot I had a multi-meter that reads from a thermocouple either C or F.

[dverna]

My opinion...

Fliers are not the result of barrel heating up. Ammunition and operator error cause fliers...at least with .22’s and jacketed bullets. I can see lube being an issue for cast bullets....one reason I will not hunt with cast bullets.

First shot out of group seems more of a lubed cast bullet issue. It will be interesting to see what you find.

BTW, if you go through all this effort, put the scope back on. It will provide greater precision and POI will not be affected by changing light conditions over a period of hours/days.