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Thread: New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

    Hip's Ax's Avatar
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    OS OK I'll have to ask my buddy what his weight intervals were but I seem to remember 1 grain. BTW if you catch yourself looking through the sights for over like 7 seconds without taking the shot stop and start over again. That bull is no longer where it looks like it is, its burned into your retina. BTW with respect to "the thin line of white" I do have one buddy that does it that way but he has 20/15 vision, the big front aperture is what a lot of us do, I did not want to do it at first as it seems like a bad idea but my other buddy forced me to do it one day and I never went back, my groups shrunk markedly. Whatever size you choose make sure the bull is round and black when you look through the aperture, too small an aperture will make the bull look egg shaped and gray.

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    I think your shooting technique is on the right track. Shooters our age often need a little help getting the front sight in perfect focus. A cheap pair of reading glasses from Walmart can help. An NRA manual can help with breathing, natural point of aim, trigger control, etc. I find where I need to put my cheek to look through the middle of the rear peep. Then use that cheek weld consistently.

    I don't shoot competition any more so I don't spend the bucks for top grade ammo. I find Wolf or SK which is made on the Lapua line puts five shots in 1/2" at 50yds in my two Rem 40X, an H&R M12 and a Kimber. Champion's Choice has them and usually at the best price.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    The way the old time belly-shooters used the globe sight was to slip in an aperture that was just big enough to display a thin ring of white around the circular black bull. The eye has little trouble seeing that concentric ring. Those old guys said it was just as good as a scope, and the targets they could shoot pretty much proved it.

    They also claimed the prone position with proper sling adjustment was better than a bench and bags for evaluating ammunition.
    That's how I setup my peeps for pellet guns, rimfires and high power rifles. You want the smallest white ring (light) around the black of the target that your eye can get a consistent/repeatable sight picture. Doing this will take a lot of the left/right & high/low shots out of play. High left/right holes from the main group are from canting the rifle.

    When looking for ammo for your rifle you want to try to find ammo that engraves the rifling's when chambered (bolt closed) +/- 20/1000th's. 20/1000th's aligns the bullet in the bore and doesn't put a lot of stress on the case of the 22lr round. The more force it takes to jamb the bullet into the rifling's the more the back end of the 22rl round will go to the least point of resistance. Couple that with you begin to cant the crimp/hold of the base of the healed 22lr bullet. Not all chambers are created equal.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    As you can see there's as much as +/- 55/1000's difference between the different "match" chambers. While the lilja chamber is at the bottom end of the match chambers it is a heck of a lot better then the standard bentz chamber put in most match bbl's made for the 10/22's. I use the lilja ptg reamer on a lot of sporting/hunting rifles.

    Not all ammo is created equal either, typically the lower the $$$ for "match" ammo, the longer the ammo is (base of the round to the start of the front drive band). The SK standard + is longer the SK match. Is this done by design/sorting of the bullets before loading??? I'd have to say yes after measuring 15/20? different lots of both kinds of ammo and the SK match was consistently shorter then the SK standard + and had a lot smaller runout/difference in the oal's, hence a lot more consistent in length.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The master-m Lapua is from a test case, Lapua was re-designing their match ammo to compete with Eley. They were also setting up the machinery/plant in arizona creating a test center along with their center-x line of ammo. If you look at the reamer chart you will see that the Eley EPS reamer is longer then the older ww 52d/calfee reamers. The EPS bullet has a long drive band.

    Anyway I've always measured the oal's of the 22lr ammo, not the rims. Will measuring the rim thickness help??? Sure, but it also depends on the firearm/quality of the firearm your measuring for. There's a huge difference in the bolt face tolerances between a $400 rifle and a quality match rifle. Not only will the slot be tighter, the depth of that slot will be shallower on the match rifles.

    It's the movement of the rim of the 22lr case in the bolt face you want to eliminate. If you measure the oal of low grade ammo you will find that it can and will easily vary +/- 25/1000's between round in the box of 50 rounds. That difference will have 1 round align perfectly in the bore with the case strait back creating a greater chance of consistent ignition & even pressure/release of the bullets heal. The longer round can and will change the fp hit along with putting uneven pressure on the bullet's heal/changing the release.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Take what USCRA said and change the size of your bullseye until it almost fills your front sight as you look at it through your sights at your shooting range. This one simple change made a huge difference in my use of those sights.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Hick>[ It might depend some on your vision. I have artificial lenses in both eyes (cataract surgery) which makes it so I cannot focus up close without glasses. Peep and globe I shoot without glasses because I can just center everything and see the target clearly.]

    *I had the same surgery, it worked in my good eye but not the other, that's fine...my good eye is the left & I'ma leftie (shooter only of course, not politically!)
    I bought the upgraded lenses that would allow me to see both far and near & they work very well although the 50 yd. 2" spot I am using is not absolutely crisp, but with my lenses, it is as crisp as if it were on the end of my bench & the globe is crisp also with or without glasses.
    In researching how to use the peep & globe, I saw that most of the suggestions were to focus on that globe and allow the eye to align the target automatically. That's how I've been practicing...but...it is a dogfight for me not to take a quick focus on that dang 2" spot during the shot sequence. Invariably, when I refocus on the globe that dang spot has moved laterally...doing that and seeing what it does has helped me to keep my focus on the globe and have the faith in the rest. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions as to how others handle that and will try pert-near anything...

    Hip's Ax>[BTW if you catch yourself looking through the sights for over like 7 seconds without taking the shot stop and start over again. That bull is no longer where it looks like it is, its burned into your retina.]
    [the big front aperture is what a lot of us do, I did not want to do it at first as it seems like a bad idea but my other buddy forced me to do it one day and I never went back, my groups shrunk markedly]

    *I've noticed that, especially when I have to take another breath sequence but stay put behind the rifle...that spot is not as clear or it looks distorted in the rear peep...kinda like a smeared image. I thought it may have been from the amount of light I was seeing reflected back from the target backstop.

    When I first started, my backstop didn't reflect much light back at me to see within the globe's inner and outer space of the ring. Too much darkness...



    *Then I sprayed the interior of the metal catcher yellow & that helped with the light around the target but not with the outer ring of the globe, I still had the dark wood of the RR ties showing & that was a problem trying to get the cheek weld so the 'circle within the circle' was consistent...



    *Finally I cut a large rubber mat to fit the catcher and sprayed it sorta white and sorta silver (that was all the paint I had in the locker at the time) but that fixed the problem of the light inside the globe...but again not enough to fill the outer ring, wood still showing.

    I stapled 12" wide paper from a roll all around the metal catcher and that did the trick. A windstorm started ripping it off before I could get a close-up picture of what that looked like but not before I got the cheek weld worked out.



    *So that worked out and now I'm more concerned with the cheek weld and have not even tried to look at the outer ring because my groups have 'sorta' settled down to movement just around the bull of the 2" spot. I figure that movement is from a non-perfect cheek weld.
    Finally I'm using this arangement with the rubber mat...



    Forrest r>[You want the smallest white ring (light) around the black of the target that your eye can get a consistent/repeatable sight picture. Doing this will take a lot of the left/right & high/low shots out of play. High left/right holes from the main group are from canting the rifle.]

    >[Not all ammo is created equal either, typically the lower the $$$ for "match" ammo, the longer the ammo is (base of the round to the start of the front drive band).]

    *I had all of these globe & posts that came with the rifle, and naturally I thought that the smallest interior of the globe might work the best...I started with that just from guessing what it might look like. I will experiment with the larger globes at some point...



    Wayne Smith>[Take what USCRA said and change the size of your bullseye until it almost fills your front sight as you look at it through your sights at your shooting range. This one simple change made a huge difference in my use of those sights.]

    In using the smallest globe I did experiment with various target spots...2", 3", 4" & 6"...what a difference they make, believe it or not, so far the 2" spots are the easiest for my eye to center in the smallest globe but I haven't done any extensive testing...say for at least a week or so with any particular spot other than the 2" & 3" spots...maybe I should revisit this angle?



    Thanks Forrest r for all the information about the chambers and the 'measurement of the round to the start of the front of the drive band'...I will get to work on another little jig like the one below so I can measure that, that is something I had not even thought about!
    I have some .223 cases that ought'a work perfectly...



    That's it for now, I hope I haven't excluded any comments and made anyone angry, as if I'm not paying attention to each and every one of you...thank you all, I can't begin to say how much I appreciate all this help.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Changing the front sight ring/bullseye size is the cheapest and simplest way to improve groups. I usually shoot target dots but went to the range once without my targets so bought a couple of their standard 50 yd competition targets - and wow! - my groups shrank just on the change of the target. Taught me a lot about shooting those sight.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Made a new jig yesterday to measure the length of the round from base of case to the front of the drive band.
    It’s a 204 Ruger case...



    Just had time to measure a few to see what this Aguila ammo would be...so far .010” min to max in this small sample...

    Question. . . “What are the better ammo tolerances?”
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Determining variance of dimension from base to drive bands is a new idea, as far as I know. Have never heard or read of anybody doing it before, even going back into the halcyon days of the competition bellyshooter sport in the 1930s.

    Now we need to build a database of how this varies from brand to brand, and within lots.

    Does, say, Eley Tenex vary less within a lot than Minimags or Auto Match?

    Lotta work.

    Then try to infer statistically how much a given variance brand to brand actually influences accuracy at the point of impact.

    Heckovalotta work.

    Not a project to take on in these days of ammo famine, either. For my years-ago study I must have bought over a dozen bricks of the different brands. (Still have most of what wasn't fired, too.)

    My process control gaging engineer juices are flowing again. Do any of the mfgrs. already gage this dimension?

    Could this be done on the line with a vision system? (answer = certainly, at well over 100 rounds per minute)

    What characteristics of case, bullet, and assembly process influence the dimension of the loaded round?

    Fun!
    Last edited by uscra112; 11-12-2020 at 12:52 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    It was posted above about all the custom chamber reamers dimensions, that doesn’t help me with this cheap Sav. MKII FVT...but it does enable me to measure these rounds and put them in lots that have at least 20 rounds in each lot.
    This will enable me to at least test which lengths will work better with my chamber of “UNKNOWN DIMENSIONS”

    I’ve seen this cheap Aguila stack those rounds like cordwood from time to time... could it have something to do with my chamber.
    I don’t know but today I’ll start testing to see...it does appear that rim thickness and weight sorting does make a difference, so...NOTHING TESTED...NOTHING LEARNED!

    Right?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Hmmm, seems Brownell's has the tools, although not specifically for gaging this dimension of loaded .22 rounds.

    https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...tors/index.htm
    Cognitive Dissident

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Didn’t think of that!

    I get a Brainstorm Brewing and first thing I do is go looking for something I can refurbish into what I need.

    I’m doomed to the old’skool ways...me thinks!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Well, your trick is cheaper and had zero lead time.
    Cognitive Dissident

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    FIRST TEST OF OVERALL LENGTH TO FRONT DRIVE BAND...

    I am extremely pleased with this first test even though it really is insignificant in the great scheme of data that needs to be accumulated to even try to assert that this measurement means anything at all.

    I test measured more than a box of rounds. Enough to have an ‘Overall wide sampling’ of the extreme & to select the widest spread to start. I had visions of seeing the longest group well & the shortest to group not so well.
    I set the ammo box up so I’d know which was which using the shortest on the warmer target and worked to the longest as I shot the 4” spots from bottom left to top center to bottom right...



    Wind today was 3 to 5 variable but I didn’t change any sight pictures to compensate, I shot as if it were dead calm. You can see the flags as they indicated the wind...





    I ran two dry patches in the barrel and a damp swab mop in chamber and dried the chamber.

    The Warmer target really got my attention, I didn’t expect that.
    I blew the .883” target by pushing my breath window...after having a talk with myself, I settled down to businesses and gott’er done.
    The .886” target started showing promise & finally did my job a little better on the .890” target.



    It’ll be interesting to hear your comments about your experience if you’ve tried this and what you think about this first test.
    I intend to stick with this type measuring in the future until I can have enough data collected to have an opinion and I will try this with another brand or two just to see if it might apply there.

    Thanks for following this thread.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Need to do this with ammo already selected for weight. Or had you done so? (Always try to control all parameters except the one you're studying.)

    I've still got weight-sorted lots of several brands left from my testing. Am motivated to make a gage like yours to evaluate them by this characteristic. Don't have that 10/22 anymore, but have several good single shots with good bores and tight chambers. All I'll need is a target chaser, since I'm so crippled with arthritis now......
    Cognitive Dissident

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    This was just a straight forward OAL to drive band sort, thought about what your saying but I wanted to start simple.
    Wish we were neighbors, we could have a good time in this rabbit hole and I’d run your targets.

    Hahahaaa...on second thought...heck, I’m 70...how bout I just walk them?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    just for information gathered so far...this is how several boxes of Aguila sort out measuring from the base of the case to the front of the drive band.
    This new measuring jig is made from a .204 Ruger case.



    It makes me wonder what the spread is in hi-$ .22lr that the BR boys use?

    Now...if only we could nail down the exact measurements of the Savage MKII FVT chamber, I could have a better guesstimate of what might fit that chamber and center up on that tapered forcing cone in front of the lands & grooves.

    I've searched hi & lo for that information but haven't come up with anything but measurements taken by someone on another forum using a pin-set.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK----"Now...if only we could nail down the exact measurements of the Savage MKII FVT chamber, I could have a better guesstimate of what might fit that chamber and center up on that tapered forcing cone in front of the lands & grooves.

    I've searched hi & lo for that information but haven't come up with anything but measurements taken by someone on another forum using a pin-set."



    Any reason you can't do a chamber cast that you can measure precisely?

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    OS OK----"Now...if only we could nail down the exact measurements of the Savage MKII FVT chamber, I could have a better guesstimate of what might fit that chamber and center up on that tapered forcing cone in front of the lands & grooves.

    I've searched hi & lo for that information but haven't come up with anything but measurements taken by someone on another forum using a pin-set."



    Any reason you can't do a chamber cast that you can measure precisely?
    No reason...just don't have any of that stuff and haven't gotten to that point. Guess I was hoping for a shortcut and getting the answer posted by someone who knows.

    If I'm reading the information correctly that was posted earlier, the .22lr doesn't have a leade...it has a tapered cone in front of the lands and grooves...?me thinks?

    Maybe one of the BR Boys can elaborate on that?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Watch the "lines of white rather than the sights and bullseye".the line between rear appeture and front globe and insert and bullseye. Use appetures to leave a nice ring showing like 1 -1/2 mins. Dont make it a seeing contest. The bigger rear appeture also allows more light into the eye. If possible get in the shade and shoot into the light. Another is to pad the cheek rest for a solid cheek support weld.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Interesting that your sample shows that double peak rather than a normal distribution (bell curve). Once again I'm thinking that their process has multiple paths, which aren't adjusted to be alike, and the resulting product(s) are being mixed together before they come to the packaging stage. Probably the rule rather than the exception in high volume mfg of ammo, and I'll lay odds that Eley doesn't do this in making their top grades.
    Cognitive Dissident

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