New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[OS OK]

Addressing a problem...

I have been doing the best I can with the sight picture of the front globe, but...I haven't had a fully 'illuminated outer ring' around the inner part of the globe. My sight picture has been something like this picture below...the camera is a little too close to the rear eye cup and you are seeing a little more than I actually see. But, notice the rail ties around the backstop lead catcher...they are dark and don't illuminate the outer ring of the inner globe...



I've tried to make up for that by having a really good repeatable cheek weld, thinking that if I don't have a concentric outer ring, if it's off a little bit, I can at least adjust the sights so that the POI would remain the same.
Something has been bugging me about not having that fully illuminated outer ring when I see so many strung out shots...some literally side by side but strung out in a line.
Today I built a rig that would attach to the front of the lead catcher backstop and give me a much wider area of 'white' reflected light evenly around the outer ring of the globe.
Here is what I came up with...



It is a 4' x 4' sheet of 1/4" oak plywood primed and painted flat white. It attaches to the backstop by wood pieces in the rear that fit the angle of the tapered cone of the backstop on the top and right side...



Those wooden pieces fit the angle of the taper and on the other side there are screws that snug up to the other side and pull the rear framework tight to the face of the steel...



Those two screws snug the front plywood to the face sorta like a picture frame.
This gives me an opening in front of the larger opening that is a little bit smaller than the poster board & backer cardboard I use to make the targets. There are a couple spring steel paper clips there to hang the target...



Those are typical paper clips for a 1/2" stack of paper, you've all seen them before, I had some in the shop and thought they'd work to hold the target and backer centered in front of the hole.



This gives me a huge white area to make up for that outer ring around the center globe not having any reflection and causing me trouble as I tried to center up the sight picture.

I also changed the front globe that I modified by using a stick-on piece of black stick back tape to thicken up the inner globe ring...now the sight picture looks like this...it is a little thinner width of the inner globe, I hoped that'd allow more light around the inner globe to be in my sight picture...again, the camera is too close to the eye cup, I don't see the entire front sight enclosure...just the inner ring of light.



Normally I shoot in the morning hours with the sun behind me and you don't see the shadow of the target on this new addition, the picture above is late in the afternoon causing that shadow, however the shadow didn't cause me any problems as I went ahead and shot one set...hahaaa...I couldn't wait for tomorrow, I just knew that this would make a difference . . . . and I think it did! "Thank You Jesus, I've been needing a break!"
Here's the set I shot this afternoon...3 of the 4 targets came in under a 1" grouping! I was thrilled with these results today! This has some good possibilities for my further training...



I will adjust the sights as the POI has changed with this new globe but I think I can definitely see much better groupings here and almost no strung out shots!

[1066]

That's really looks like you're getting it together, some decent groups there.
Just two thoughts. I would ditch the shoot-n-see targets. The whole aperture sight thing is a bit of an optical trick honed to perfection over the last hundred or more years. The eye tries to center the mass of the target up in the foresight ring. As your group develops, unless it is plumb in the centre, the mass of the target, due to the yellow showing, becomes lop sided and your brain tries to center this new target area up in your foresight.
Second thought. I think you would do better with a larger aiming mark. The targets you are using look the be about the size used for 25 yard prone shooting. All prone targets designed to be used with aperture sights are scaled from the standard 100 yd target so they all look the same through your front sight. Very rarely would a prone competitor consider changing the size of his front element when moving from 25 to 50 to 100 yards, they all look exactly the same.
The 50 yard target is around 4" and this should give the correct sight picture with the average front element, usually between 3.5 mm and 4.5 mm, depending on individual preference and the length of the barrel or sight base if you're using an extended tube.
A stencil and rattle can will do the trick.

[OS OK]

Thanks 1066...("A stencil and rattle can will do the trick.")

Thanks for the information on sizes used, rattle cans and stencils is what I like best anyway.
And...your right about seeing a contrast when the yellow-green starts showing through, I never considered my eye doing something about that I was not consciously aware of.

All I know about sight picture and what it looks like is what I've seen here at home, for some reason the 2" & 3" spots seem easy for me to center up but I want to learn this skill using the accepted and already worked out sizes & methods. I appreciate this information...

There's not a lot of information out there on the web that I've found & I imagine that competition keeps all the competitors holding the tips-n-tricks information close to their chests.

Does anyone have any pictures or links to the exact targets that are used in this game?

Is there a forum somewhere dedicated to these shooters, their mentors and training?

[dverna]

Good progress!!! And astute comments by 1066.

OS OK, When I was looking at stuff like this I found that the size of targets/rings at different ranges was spelled out in the Rules Book for NRA High Power...I assume there will be a Rule Book for Small Bore as well. Google was what I used.

[OS OK]

10-4 dverna...thanks for the rule book info...I'll be 'GOOGLING' today!

edit:

BINGO !

SMALL BORE RIFLE RULES
http://www.rulebooks.nra.org/documen...r/sbr-book.pdf

Does this look like the proper target dimensions for the 50 yard? (the outer 7 ring measurement is what I want for a rattle can/template?)

50 Yard Target. A-23/3 - 3 bullseyes, and A-23/5, 5 bullseyes, and A-23/6, 6 bullseyes. For use in Conventional 4-Position and 50 yard stage of Conventional Prone competitions only.
7 through 10 rings black.
X ring ..................... .39 inch
7 ring ............. 3.89 inches
10 ring .................... .89 inch
6 ring ............. 4.89 inches
9 ring .................. 1.89 inches
5 ring ............. 5.89 inches
8 ring .................. 2.89 inches

[1066]

Yes, exactly right. - you will find that for club/school/cadet level shooting, the black will be the same size but the scoring rings easier. International level the targets are now scored, mostly electronically and each scoring ring is broken down into decimal places. So a shot that is mostly in the 8 ring but cuts the 9 ring on the 50 yd target with conventional scoring would give a 9 (inward gauging), with electronic scoring it would give a 9.1, a shot almost a 10 but not cutting the line would be a 9.9.

If your interested in the history of aperture sights used in match shooting over the last 100 years or so, then this is an interesting read. If you scroll down to the bottom there's a free PDF book.

https://www.rifleman.org.uk/PH_Service_sights.html

When I started shooting long range matches in the 1960's, in the UK, all official target shooting was with converted service rifles in .303, very often a Lee Enfield Mk4 and ammunition was subsidised by the government. At that time it was usual to use a rear aperture but a post front sight. The targets were "half round" our to 600 yards and full round from 600 to 1,000 yards.


Small bore match rifles (.22) have used the aperture and globe front sight since the 1920's or more.

[OS OK]

Excellent 1066...!...the contributions all you fellas are making to this thread are really making it a success & information packed read...I do appreciate it, I love to learn new things.

[1066]

Here's one that should print out.
https://www.silvercitygunclub.com/PDF/a23.pdf

[tazman]

Here's one that should print out.
https://www.silvercitygunclub.com/PDF/a23.pdf

It prints out well. Must use the print at 100% setting with standard letter size paper(8.5X11) for the size to be correct. DO NOT use fit to page. It will print small.

[OS OK]

Going to try today to see how many targets I can lay out on one of these papers I've been using and get the proper spacing between them.
Looks like the 3.89" bull size is spaced from the next target at that same bull diameter in between the bull's edges.

I don't know that that matters regarding the NRA Rule book or not, but... here in the back yard but I don't want to see parts of another adjoining bull when I'm sighting one of them in the front globe assembly.

hahaaa...I know, I'm 'picky-picky' but I need all the help I can get!

[OS OK]

Harry Tobin's 3-D printed eye cup inserts arrived today...I made a rattle-can template...then I shot a new target.

Great day all around. Harry's .040" eye cup inserts arrived and snap fit almost perfectly into the Williams sight...I put the extras in my sight accessory box and put one in the rifle. I got about 6 to 10 shots before it popped out so I used a rubber band to keep it there until I find a 'work around'.
Geez, this rifle stays dusty keeping it in the shop, it's that table saw...everything is dusty in there..."oh well''.



Harry made each iris a little different, some had a relief cut on the front, the eye side of the iris and one didn't, haven't tried them all yet.



The 'quick fix' - rubber band work around...held it just fine.



Then I found a 4" hole saw and made a template from a plastic corrugated sign I had...did a little rattle can dazzle...







Put that in place and headed back to the 50 yard line...



There was a little bit of a shadow using those little spring clamps but it wasn't a distraction. I hung a little spotter spot to align the sights and have a barrel warmer...



I found some large paper clips to hold the target for tomorrow's practice, they should eliminate the shadow almost completely, I hope.



All in all I was very pleased, that .040" iris helped with the clarity but didn't completely get rid of the lint look in the iris...that was there and not there intermintently, I don't understand that just yet. Maybe the #3 Merit will clear things up?



But, in the end...I have no complaints, I'm happy with these new targets & they are plenty cheap to make, they are a little larger than the NRA targets by maybe 3/8" or so but in a pinch, these will do for now.

[tazman]

If your hole saw cuts a true 4" hole, the targets are roughly one tenth of an inch too large. For your purposes, not enough to worry about.
I doubt it would change your POI or group size if you switched to an actual official target.
Things are coming together nicely for you.

[OS OK]

If your hole saw cuts a true 4" hole, the targets are roughly one tenth of an inch too large. For your purposes, not enough to worry about.
I doubt it would change your POI or group size if you switched to an actual official target.
Things are coming together nicely for you.

You know hole saws in a hand drill, they wobble like crazy and this saw was about 25 years old and had many missing teeth...hahaaa...it did good to to just make a round hole!

The objective is to stop using the shoot-n-see targets...I think I'm weened today Taz.

[OS OK]

Every day I go out fully expecting some kind of improvement whether it be in technique or better groups overall...

but . . . . as life would have it, some days bring less than the expected, no matter how hard you try!
"Some days I just can't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle!"

hahaaa . . . this is what it is, they say . . . I walk away with the resolve that'll I'll do better tomorrow!

[Pressman]

I would give you guys the award for the most fun and interesting post on Castboolits.

[OS OK]

Thank you @ Pressman... I'm just having a good time and receiving a lot of good advise from some really great Mentor's here on CB's!

[OS OK]

Excuses are like 'belly buttons' ... everybody's got one so I won't bother with an excuse for this...

Like Joe Friday used to say..."Just give us the facts Mam!"

It started out looking promising and when I got to the 1/2" group I thought I was on a roll...but it just didn't turn out as I hoped!
Oh well...."I'll be back!"



*The numbers above the targets are the OAL/fdb ... 'Over All Length -to- the front drive band', I'm sorting this Aguila again.

[1066]

Not sure you understand how this game's normally played OS. Usual routine is to crop out the top right target and not mention the rest - then claim my rifle shoots 1/2" all day long.

Happy Christmas to all you guys.

[OS OK]

there'Ya go 1066...

"All day long, rain or shine...tipsy or sober as a Judge, I can do this with my 'mediocre lil'rifle' everyday of the week! Stinking ammo...ordinarily all the shots go into one little tiny hole."



"hahaaa . . . . if I lied like that, this would be my story for the rest of my days!"



Merry Christmas all'Yalls out there!

[Harry Tobin]

there'Ya go 1066...

"All day long, rain or shine...tipsy or sober as a Judge, I can do this with my 'mediocre lil'rifle' everyday of the week! Stinking ammo...ordinarily all the shots go into one little tiny hole."



"hahaaa . . . . if I lied like that, this would be my story for the rest of my days!"



Merry Christmas all'Yalls out there!

nice Shootin Tex