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Thread: New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

  1. #621
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I know all about reading and thinking about something else! I don't read much actually.

    On group wondering, I did see it to a small degree but satisfied that the gun had settled, I ventured to zero the scope, moving the POI to the left. Well, the group moved to the left but also moved down! Anyway, I got it centered - that's when I shot the black spot out before the jamb then I took the scope of to test the reflex. After putting the scope back on the POI had moved to the opposite side so clearly the scope wasn't stable on its rail the first time. I'll monitor that one.

    I can understand the POI drifting with open sights because of light conditions changing but not aperture sights. I was aware of cheek and hand pressure. The 510 is bedded between the fore-end and the rear of the action with the center screw holding pressure. I wonder whether the rest position would have an effect? Perhaps I should have the rest under the bedding point?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  2. #622
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy...Groups shifting is not new . . . in this thread, I've had to deal with this many times before though it hasn't been much of a topic of conversation here.

    It concerned me to no end. If the POI is not the POA then I have to know why, especially if I suspect or someone suggests it's something mechanical.
    I have a routine, now that the scope is temporarily mounted that helps to eliminate anything I might physically do to induce this group shifting.


    Let me explain a little of my pre-shot set up to send one...
    Once the round is chambered & I am done with the bolt, I am not yet 'embracing the stock' ... being left handed, I use both hands to load the rifle in this single shot manner. I secure the rifle in place so it won't move all over the bags & then alternating hands I rack the bolt and feed the chamber and rack the bolt back...I am ready to start to embrace the rifle now.

    The first thing I do then is to almost put my face to the riser but NOT touch, I just want to see through the scope that I haven't changed the windage by loading the rifle, it is just a quick peek, I don't need a full scope picture and if that's good, the next step is to put my left arm around and my shoulder behind the stock. This is where I had been influencing the windage...
    If I press sideways against the stock instead of straight up behind, I move the crosshairs 1/2 to a full inch on the spot as I get my cheek weld. This is bad...
    Now I need to induce muscles in my shoulder to steer the crosshairs back to their centered windage alignment.

    If my shoulder muscles are lightly steering the alignment in one direction, I find the group moves to the opposite direction...slightly but obvious...all I want is enough pressure straight into the stock from my shoulder to meet the recoil and NOT preload that pressure and engage shoulder muscles again. It is a light balance of position as I don't have to keep the rifle in place from recoil you will encounter with a centerfire, I don't even have to be firm against the stock, just touching and relaxing my torso.

    This I think has been my routine to help prevent group shifting, the other part I do is get that cheek weld the exact same each and every time I do this set-up for sending the round.

    By this explanation you can see that if I have group shifting happening...I have to know why...my first thought is..."what the heck am I doing to do this?"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  3. #623
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I started a thread discussing CROWNS today...if you want to follow & or comment there, here's the link . . .

    A proper crown . . . Is there only one type?
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-only-one-type
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  4. #624
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    The 510 is bedded between the fore-end and the rear of the action with the center screw holding pressure. I wonder whether the rest position would have an effect? Perhaps I should have the rest under the bedding point?
    I would say yes to this. If you put upward pressure on the stock in front of the bedding, it might be possible to induce a flex in the stock clear back to the action. If the upward pressure is under the bedding point, it should not induce any flex in the stock.
    If inconsistently placing your cheek and hand on the stock can make a difference, certainly putting pressure on the stock in front of the bedding could as well.

  5. #625
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Hey taz ... I watched them launch your boat today!

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  6. #626
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I wish I had the money that boat cost in my bank account. I would by some land and set up a shooting range.

  7. #627
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I don't suppose bedding would be worth looking into? I would not expect so but following from the crown question, I began to ask myself what else could be going on. What could change from one group to the next? I shoot a group, go forward to have a look, come back and shoot another group and the POI has shifted! Or the group has opened up. So what can be causing it? Well, this afternoon I decided to have a closer look at the Mauser. Firstly I attempted to clean and polish the bore a bit because its groups opened up yesterday. Anyway, I checked the bedding. It's free floated but the skinny fore-end was touching the barrel on one side. That can't help accuracy.

    So why would it have shot well last Sunday? And the Sunday two weeks before? Well, the previous two days were warm and sunny and the sun was shining on the barrel. Yesterday it was cool weather although still sunny earlier but not so much when I brought the Mauser out. Is temperature causing the stock to contact or press harder on the barrel? What does the sun shining on one side of the barrel do? I think I've asked that question before. And I've mentioned the group opening up after a damaged and difficult to chamber round. The Mauser is spoiling me by the way. That thing is so slick and easy to operate! And what a trigger!

    Anyway, just more questions with no answers (yet).
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  8. #628
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Humidity makes wood stocks move.
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #629
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I don't suppose bedding would be worth looking into? I would not expect so but following from the crown question, I began to ask myself what else could be going on. What could change from one group to the next? I shoot a group, go forward to have a look, come back and shoot another group and the POI has shifted! Or the group has opened up. So what can be causing it? Well, this afternoon I decided to have a closer look at the Mauser. Firstly I attempted to clean and polish the bore a bit because its groups opened up yesterday. Anyway, I checked the bedding. It's free floated but the skinny fore-end was touching the barrel on one side. That can't help accuracy.

    So why would it have shot well last Sunday? And the Sunday two weeks before? Well, the previous two days were warm and sunny and the sun was shining on the barrel. Yesterday it was cool weather although still sunny earlier but not so much when I brought the Mauser out. Is temperature causing the stock to contact or press harder on the barrel? What does the sun shining on one side of the barrel do? I think I've asked that question before. And I've mentioned the group opening up after a damaged and difficult to chamber round. The Mauser is spoiling me by the way. That thing is so slick and easy to operate! And what a trigger!

    Anyway, just more questions with no answers (yet).
    Folks say that if a 1$ bill will pass from for-end to the bedding at the front of the action without hanging up...you have a free floated barrel.
    But . . . I notice little things like 'symmetry' in the world around me, dunnoh why...I just see things that way, always have. I have noticed that old Winchester of mine 'sometimes does' & 'sometimes does not' have symmetry in the space along side the stock fore-end and the barrel. That skinny pencil line thick shadow space between the barrel & stock.

    I checked that once when I couldn't see that space equal on both sides...the stock was not touching the barrel but at the same time it was not equal on both sides.
    SO...I grab a piece of paper and go to run it under the barrel to assure myself there's no problem and danged if it wouldn't pass, it hung up about 1/2" going in on the for-end.
    I could see that the stock was not touching on either side but that meant nothing...that stock was moving around with the weather...ever so slightly but moving like uscra112 said and on that day it wouldn't pass a piece of paper.

    I decided that I was going to make that thin space somewhat wider so I took a dowel the size of the barrel wrapped some 80 grit around it like a taco and went to work, I figured I needed a little more space around the barrel, that the 1$ bill was not good enough, not thick enough as a gauge.
    That stock moves more now that it has the room to move but it hasn't come in contact with the barrel again.

    This morning I'm back into Bill Calfee's book trying to find out about the crown...I'm going to end up reading the whole thing cover to cover just for this answer, will prolly find the answer near the back of the book! Maybe I ought'a read it backwards!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  10. #630
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Interesting subject...crowns. I had a muzzle brake installed on a .300 Win Mag years ago and the smith cut a new crown. It shrank groups but now I am not sure if that was due to the new crown or the addition of the muzzle brake.
    Don Verna


  11. #631
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I never thought about the barrel vibrations in conjunction with the stock on a 22lr rifle before this last year. But then, I wasn't trying to shoot bug hole groups at 50 yards before either. I just never thought there would be that much vibration with a 22lr rifle.
    Centerfire, yes. 22lr, no. Just goes to show what not thinking will do for you.

    Bedding a rifle properly is just as important to 22lr accuracy as it is in high power centerfire rifles. Front to back movement as well as side to side movement needs to be eliminated. Just tightening the screws is not enough.
    I also never thought that different pressure from your cheek on the stock would matter or slight differences in the grip of your trigger hand would matter. Just how consistently you squeezed the trigger. I never realized how that slight flex in the stock would change things. I simply didn't believe it would matter.

    Just as much technique and preparation needs to go into an accurate 22lr rifle as goes into a centerfire rifle.

    Shooting 22lr for best accuracy this past year has greatly improved my centerfire shooting. My centerfire rifles are better than I believed they were.

    I am going to go to my reloading room and check the bedding on my rifles today(weather is terrible today). One is pillar bedded so not much I can do there. The others are not pillar bedded so I need to check those out. Probably why screw torque matters so much. It changes how the stock and the action work together.

  12. #632
    Boolit Master

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    Sun shining on the barrel will cause that side of the barrel to get warmer and expand and the temperature differential from one side to the other will cause the barrel to bend. It will not be enough to see, and it may not be enough to measure, but if it contacts the stock, especially near the muzzle, it will cause the point of impact to change.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  13. #633
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    So not too much effect then. My Mauser fore-end touching the barrel is a problem. Opening the channel is fine and good but this is a 1938 thereabouts sporter that one doesn't want to mess with. When I get the proper fitting screw driver I'll attempt to loosen the action and see if I can re-align in it the stock. I just don't want to mar the screws. They used to like narrow screw slots in those days, requiring a carefully ground screw driver.

    Anyway, this problem of shifting POI and groups opening and closing is not unique to us. So we are having it worse than this guy but then we don't have million dollar rifles and air conditioned shooting tunnels.

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/9871088921
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-20-2021 at 12:24 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #634
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    It would be measurable with the right instrumentation. Working in the machine tool business as I once did, I saw this happening to the column of a 20 ton horizontal jig mill, (a deVlieg), and it wasn't even direct sun. It was too close to an outer wall that got hot in the afternoon, (if it was sunny).

    Never mind whether the barrel touches the stock, the thermal bending alone will move the POI.
    Cognitive Dissident

  15. #635
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    But at least the groups will stay constant. I didn't realize just how skinny the Mauser barrel was!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  16. #636
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Skinny barrels sometimes benefit from contact with the stock near the front. There was once a gadget called an "electric bedder" that the belly-shooters used. You mounted it in the forearm of your Winchester 52 . It had two screws at a 90 degree angle that could be adjusted upward to contact the barrel. The screws being insulated from the barrel, a small battery and a meter connected across the gap would allow you to precisely adjust them for first contact, then add fractions of a turn to apply whatever you thought was the optimum pressure. Since the stocks were wood, you did this miracle each time you got to the range, before lying down to shoot.

    It's also well known that optimizing some military rifles involves precisely fitting the contact at the tip of the stock to the barrel. My K31 Schmidt-Rubin is one such.

    Ditto Krags.
    Last edited by uscra112; 04-20-2021 at 12:52 AM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  17. #637
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Had 2 different 40x's that had the "tuners" in the front of the stock. They would need to be reset with every outing when used. I used them in cooler weather, they tended to stop 1st shot fliers in 50*/60* weather.

    FWIW:
    It's common practice to set a rifle out before a match to adjust to the conditions of the day. The hold down screws would then be torqued.

  18. #638
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman . . . [Just as much technique and preparation needs to go into an accurate 22lr rifle as goes into a centerfire rifle.]
    Sometimes I think it takes even more effort, more concentration & paying attention to details to work these .22lr's because we have to contend with a 'box-O-ammo' somebody else made and work entirely around that. It certainly hones our skills & for them that are aware of details...it takes'em down a rabbit'hole!

    ulav8r . . . [Sun shining on the barrel will cause that side of the barrel to get warmer and expand and the temperature differential from one side to the other will cause the barrel to bend.]
    "Hmmmmmmmmmm?"

    303Guy . . . [Anyway, this problem of shifting POI and groups opening and closing is not unique to us. So we are having it worse than this guy but then we don't have million dollar rifles and air conditioned shooting tunnels.
    '22 Rim Fire Ammo Test In A Bleiker'
    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/9871088921 ]
    Thank you for this link, prolly one of the most important links we have shared here in this or the other thread about 'New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...'! https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...BR-at-50-yards
    This guy has it all going for him ... rifle, test facility & unlimited ammo to test...
    I doub't he 'tuned' for each type ammo, but I find it interesting that he claims this rifle & setup as one of the best in the world. I don't doubt his words but I find it interesting to see a 'tuner' on the front end.



    Even he shows groups morphing on the same target face within the same sampled groups & shot at the same time.



    I have bookmarked his thread...there is a 'Gold Mine' of information in his photos & the details & speeds he has listed here if you know how to evaluate what info he does provide.

    uscra112 . . . [It would be measurable with the right instrumentation...I saw this happening to the column of a 20 ton horizontal jig mill and it wasn't even direct sun. It was too close to an outer wall that got hot in the afternoon, (if it was sunny). Never mind whether the barrel touches the stock, the thermal bending alone will move the POI.]
    "Hmmmmmmmmmmm?"

    Forrest r . . . [Had 2 different 40x's that had the "tuners" in the front of the stock. They would need to be reset with every outing when used. I used them in cooler weather, they tended to stop 1st shot fliers in 50*/60* weather.
    FWIW:
    It's common practice to set a rifle out before a match to adjust to the conditions of the day. The hold down screws would then be torqued.
    ]
    "Hmmmmmmmmmmm?"

    "Hmmmmmmmmmmm?" . . . I think you boys just turned a light on in my 'little pea sized noggin'! We have looked at temperature rise before,



    I did not take the thinking far enough through...to realize what the three of you are saying here.
    This is one of those "DuuuuuuuH!" moments for me!

    I have started a 'new target format', this is it...also it is with a clean chamber and dirty barrel, I'm done experimenting with the 'wax patch'...



    This would be an excellent time to set the rifle out in the warm sunshine prior to shooting.
    I have been taking the rifle straight from the shop (where it's shaded and cool) then setting up the shooting bench, again shading the rifle with the umbrella in the higher temperature of the day. Many times, depending on the time of morning that front end of the barrel is in direct sunlight.

    This is just the 'New Twist' I need to investigate further in the question I left the range with yesterday . . .
    "What the heck is going on here?"

    ???>Any suggestions as to 'warming time' or, should the rifle be set up proper on the rest in the sun, or just lay it out there in the wagon as I prepare the target spots for the day & set up the backstop?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  19. #639
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Warming time would probably take from 15 to 30 minutes depending on starting and ending differences. It used to take that long when I was shooting target archery and needed to warm up my equipment before a shoot. Temp change makes a difference in that discipline also.

  20. #640
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    PRE-WARMING RIFLE & AMMO... as of this morning...first thing, I checked the temperature in the shop when I opened the garage door.



    Next, I put the rifle & ammo out in the direct sun to warm for the 30 minutes that tazman suggested.



    After the timer buzzed, I checked the temperature...



    Next, I set up on the table & adjusted the umbrella so that only the back lens of the scope was in the shade...the whole front end of the rifle & the ammo remained in the direct sun for the session.
    Only thing though...ambient air temperature was 69ºƒ.



    OK...so here's the work done today...I think there's a difference for the better but I can't prove it by my performance this morning.



    Little things that have been a 'bit' of a struggle, I haven't mentioned too much, just done something about them as they pop up.
    But . . . today, it was the rear bag that caught my attention. It tends to slip around on the wood block & the slick top of the table too easy. It had to have that 2" wood block under it to make it the correct height...I taped that block to the bottom of the bag and glued a non skid rubber mat under it. I had that mat on it before but the glue didn't keep it there, today I gott'er stuck good!



    Tomorrow, I try again...one of these fine mornings we are going to see a significant difference in these target results, for the better...I keep telling myself that !
    I expect that to resolve another little problem & help lead to some decent groups.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check