.45 Rifle Ideas

[rodwha]

Working with a 13/16” barrel (thinking along the lines of a drop-in barrel for a Crockett rifle) I’ve thought it would be cool to have a handy carbine that shoots my revolver bullets paper patched or something (I’ve always liked the idea of compatible ammo). My thoughts being a 215-255, and maybe even my short 285 grn bullet pushed by even just 40 grns of an energetic 3F would be akin to a Dragoon with a conical and longer barrel, but who wouldn’t even like 50? I don’t think I’d want anymore than 60 grns and that 285 grn bullet from what would no doubt be a light rifle.

I’m working on a modified design to work as a universal bullet for both my Pietta NMA and ROA. I’ve estimated the new projectile to be .497” OAL, though I have a new powder measure with scratched in 5 grn gradients allowing me to easily eyeball 2.5 grns. Here’s a pic of another bullet I created for hogs and my ROA that I scrapped when I thought we were moving to VA and having bears on the menu, the 285 grn version.



And here’s my 285 grn version I don’t have a need for at the moment, short for such a heavy bullet:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-285C-D.png

I’d want this barrel to work great with my own universal revolver design and common 250-255 grn bullets, which should allow my heavy bullet. And maybe I’d like the ability to shoot commercial 300 grn bullets if need be. Looking through my Lyman Handbook (2nd) I see weights on up to 325 grns were used in a 1:48” twist with powder charges from as low as 40. But I also see a 20” carbine shooting .45 Colt with a 250 grn bullet and 35 grns using a 1:26” twist. Granted the powder charge starts at 70, the .45-70 shows a 292 grn bullet in a 30” barrel using a 1:18” twist. And I’ve heard of gallery loads, but then those shoots are so close it wouldn’t matter too much I wouldn’t think. We see Ruger twists their .45 Colt at 1:16” and the .454 Cas at 1:24”, yet the .44 Mag at 1:20”. Looking at Lyman’s velocities in a 28” barrel it looks like for the most part I’d within .44 Mag velocities so I’m wondering if 1:20” wouldn’t be just about ideal.

I’m thinking 24” to make it very handy or up to 28” to take advantage of the sight radius and slight boost, not to mention additional weight. Topped with peep sights since 50-75 yds is about all I can do with my glasses on and these crappy fiber optic sights. But I want to zero at 100 and shoot out to 125 yds I guess.

And that brings me to my love of the wide meplat for my handgun bullets. I’ve read a bit on the development of the wide meplat used in the .45-70 and it seemed to suggest that any wider of a meplat than 78% opened up the chances for them to not track straight in the animal. I’ve also heard that wide meplat bullets have a very hard time going from super sonic to sub sonic. However there are modern cast bullets that are wider than 78% and may or may not be dealing with the sound barrier that don’t seem to see these things enough to make a deal out of it. LBT and BearTooth make huge meplat bullets. Running estimated BCs and using Lyman’s data to get a rough idea I see that if my new bullet comes out on the lighter side at 215 grns and has a poor BC of 0.150 (Lee’s 200 RF is 0.140) it will hit the sonic barrier (estimated at 1150 FPS) as soon as about 50 yds with a 40 grn charge, 85 yds with 50, and just barely about make it to 125 yds with 60. This rounding up their velocity using Pyrodex P to the nearest 25 FPS despite my bullets weighing an average of about 15 grns more since I’d be using a more energetic powder. I used Lee’s BC values, and with their 255 grn bullet at a questionably high BC value of 0.210, it does well enough with any of those powder charges. Same with Lee’s 300 grn version.

So the lighter bullet doesn’t seem like it would do all that well out to 100+ yds unless the velocity starts off around that speed or is pushed by a heavier charge, assuming my design has a poor BC, which I figure most any WFN would. But if a >78% meplat doesn’t have stability issues there’s nothing to be concerned with, not to mention I could further modify my design to reduce it from 83%.

I don’t know much at all about paper patching or bare bullets used, though I read you’ll want them sized. Mine will have a reduced diameter of 0.454”, but my current bullets drop at 0.456”. I’m guessing I’d have 0.452” or 0.454” as far as caliber options. So what size(s) dies would I want? For a full bore bullet I believe you want it 0.001” under bore, no?

And then we have groove depth. Nothing but bullets and maybe I’d try sabots (which could effect the caliber choice) so shallow grooves. I’m not too keen on shallow groove depth or type of grooving (button and whatever options there are). I’d venture to guess one wouldn’t want them too shallow as they’d fill up with fouling too soon. Too deep and an oversized wad/card is necessary. Is that necessary anyway? Seems I typically have seen muzzleloaders and bullets using an overpowder card of some sort.

And then there’s lube... I’ve been using Gatofeo’s #1 for my felt wads, revolver bullets, and Lee REALs and really like it. Were I to use my revolver bullets bare they’d need a lot of help here as I use what’s apparently pretty close to just enough as all day range days never showed a fouling issue. So a lubed felt wad and/or lube cookie. But what of paper patched bullets? I can’t say I’ve read of felt wads used per se.

This got me thinking about my lead. I’ve cast everything with pure lead, but have contemplated 2% tin to help with potential fill issues.

I’m not all that savvy as to lead hardness needed for X velocity, nor do I know what to expect from soft lead at very high striking velocities. My universal bullet couldn’t be made too hard, but My Ruger version could be a bit harder I suppose, though I’d prefer not to concern myself with keeping various alloys around.

So at what velocity will say 7-8 BHN (about what 2% tin is, no?) begin to strip the rifling at?

I’ve seen that soft lead traveling very fast still seems to hold together pretty well. Talking a sphere here doing maybe 1600 FPS at the animal, and the weight retention tends to be quite high. I’d venture to guess it’s a much different animal than an elongated projectile. So do we know of an upper velocity limit to soft lead bullets and hitting critters? And does heavier bone, maybe the difference between whitetail and hogs, change things significantly?

[Tatume]

I'm confused. It sounds like you already own the barrel. What is the twist rate of your barrel?
But then you talk about 1:20" being a good choice. So, do you have the barrel, or are you going to purchase a barrel?

[rodwha]

I'm confused. It sounds like you already own the barrel. What is the twist rate of your barrel?
But then you talk about 1:20" being a good choice. So, do you have the barrel, or are you going to purchase a barrel?

Sorry for the confusion. I want (read need) a Crockett (any inexpensive small game rifle). I have always liked the T/C Contender with its swap-a-barrel and hunt something else capability and would replicate that with this (and my 15/16” Lyman). I want a .32-.36 cal rifle, a smoothbore for squirrels and such, and this rifle barrel I’m focusing on here that would/could use my revolver bullets (or any other). Sort of like a Jack of all trades, I understand (or think I do) enough to get into trouble.

[arcticap]

1. Accordng to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 62" to 1 in 63". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBud...ing+Twist+Rate

2. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 58". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Miller+Twist+Rule

The values plugged into these calculators for the 245 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Specific gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

Miller:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Mass: 245

3.. Accxording to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 45" to 1 in 47".

The values plugged into these calculators for the 285 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Specific Gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

4. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 44.4" to 1 in 44.5".

Miller:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Mass: 285

I believe that the reason for the slower optimal twist rates for these .45 bullets is due to their relatively short length and light weight.
The shorter the length, the lighter the weight of the bullets, thus the slower the optimal twist rate needs to be to stabilize the bullet.
Hence the slow optimal twist rates.
At 0.497", the length of the 245 grain bullet is about the diameter of a .490 round ball which is very short for a conical bullet.
Here's the link to Rodwha's 285 grain bullet and spec's. --->>> http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-285C-D.png

[RU shooter]

A standard 1:48 twist shallow groove 45 cal barrel like TC uses would work well . Shoots the maxi ball and RB equally well . I wouldn't go with a deep groove barrel if you shootings conicals regardless the twist rate something with 5-7 thou deep rifling is what I'd go with most RB barrels are twice that deep

[indian joe]

Sorry for the confusion. I want (read need) a Crockett (any inexpensive small game rifle). I have always liked the T/C Contender with its swap-a-barrel and hunt something else capability and would replicate that with this (and my 15/16” Lyman). I want a .32-.36 cal rifle, a smoothbore for squirrels and such, and this rifle barrel I’m focusing on here that would/could use my revolver bullets (or any other). Sort of like a Jack of all trades, I understand (or think I do) enough to get into trouble.

Something to think about whats the fallout range for your elongated slug vs a round ball ?

Ages ago I read an article titled "the spent bullet" or similar - It went into detail of the maximum range and endpoint ballistics of rifle projectiles coming back to earth, and damage potential - short story - drop an exhausted projectile on your neighbors head at two mile range (500odd FPS leftover speed) you likely gonna kill him. I never fired a rifle slug at a critter in a tree since I read it cuz sometimes you miss!

So if you live in settled country even on a few hundred acres - shooting squirrels and such - why not play safe and use a roundball gun? a 32 or 36 roundball is back to earth in a few hundred yards no matter how fast we send it out there - out to 50 yards they just as accurate and effective on small stuff as a bullet -

[rodwha]

Something to think about whats the fallout range for your elongated slug vs a round ball ?

Ages ago I read an article titled "the spent bullet" or similar - It went into detail of the maximum range and endpoint ballistics of rifle projectiles coming back to earth, and damage potential - short story - drop an exhausted projectile on your neighbors head at two mile range (500odd FPS leftover speed) you likely gonna kill him. I never fired a rifle slug at a critter in a tree since I read it cuz sometimes you miss!

So if you live in settled country even on a few hundred acres - shooting squirrels and such - why not play safe and use a roundball gun? a 32 or 36 roundball is back to earth in a few hundred yards no matter how fast we send it out there - out to 50 yards they just as accurate and effective on small stuff as a bullet -

Absolutely. That’s why there’s a smoothbore barrel for squirrels and such. I’d never use a .45 to shoot small game anyway as it’s just way overkill in my mind. This .45 rifle is intended for medium game, and why I’m elongating my design and incorporating a wide meplat.

“ I never fired a rifle slug at a critter in a tree since I read it cuz sometimes you miss!”

In this case even a solid hit would continue on without so much as a hiccup...

[Chemoman]

i had a thompson hawken 45 cal 1/48 twist once. custom rebarreled it. sold the barrel to a memeber here. the thompson one. it shot a lead 250 grain swagged to a 250 grain 451 hollow based kieth nosed bullet. i shot it paperpatched with 100 grain of powder behind the bullet. shot one ragged hole at 100 yards from a bench. the 1/48 twist in the thomson hawken as perfect for that pistol bullet and paper[patching.

[rodwha]

i had a thompson hawken 45 cal 1/48 twist once. custom rebarreled it. sold the barrel to a memeber here. the thompson one. it shot a lead 250 grain swagged to a 250 grain 451 hollow based kieth nosed bullet. i shot it paperpatched with 100 grain of powder behind the bullet. shot one ragged hole at 100 yards from a bench. the 1/48 twist in the thomson hawken as perfect for that pistol bullet and paper[patching.

What powder(s) were you using?

You mentioned swaging to .451 and paper patching, and being a custom barrel. What was the bore diameter, and did it have shallow grooves? I’m also curious what a custom job runs. I’d like to find a bore close to .452-4”, but have been told these wouldn’t be found easily, maybe without a high price tag.

[arcticap]

What powder(s) were you using?

You mentioned swaging to .451 and paper patching, and being a custom barrel. What was the bore diameter, and did it have shallow grooves? I’m also curious what a custom job runs. I’d like to find a bore close to .452-4”, but have been told these wouldn’t be found easily, maybe without a high price tag.

It's easier to match the bullet to the bore than the bore to the bullet.
All it takes is a sizing die or two, or making an adjustment in the design of a custom mold.

A factory barrel could be lapped to meet the bullet spec's if the bore size were only off by a couple of thousandths.
Many folks use bore paste when the bore is tighter than they would like from the factory.

You never know which bore and bullet spec.'s will shoot best without some experimentation.
That's why some slip fit bullet making outfits make them in different sizes, and sell them in sampler packs as a way to test each of them for best results in a specific bore.

And it's the same with sizing dies which can be either fixed or adjustable.
That's why in the old days they used false muzzles to help size their bullets right at the muzzle when loading.
The false muzzle sized and engraved the bullet with rifling grooves and protected the muzzle from wear.
Doing it that way would allow the bullet to fill in part of the grooves without only relying on obturation.

[Edward]

i had a thompson hawken 45 cal 1/48 twist once. custom rebarreled it. sold the barrel to a memeber here. the thompson one. it shot a lead 250 grain swagged to a 250 grain 451 hollow based kieth nosed bullet. i shot it paperpatched with 100 grain of powder behind the bullet. shot one ragged hole at 100 yards from a bench. the 1/48 twist in the thomson hawken as perfect for that pistol bullet and paper[patching.

Roger (johnson 1942) thought you were banned ,glad to hear you ,I got that bullet made by Tom at accurate nice mold(44-345P) and I still cast from it. But I"ve moved on to others I like more ,just could"nt get those one hole groups @100 yds like you shoot (ha) Ed

[rodwha]

It's easier to match the bullet to the bore than the bore to the bullet.
All it takes is a sizing die or two, or making an adjustment in the design of a custom mold.

A factory barrel could be lapped to meet the bullet spec's if the bore size were only off by a couple of thousandths.
Many folks use bore paste when the bore is tighter than they would like from the factory.

You never know which bore and bullet spec.'s will shoot best without some experimentation.
That's why some slip fit bullet making outfits make them in different sizes, and sell them in sampler packs as a way to test each of them for best results in a specific bore.

And it's the same with sizing dies which can be either fixed or adjustable.
That's why in the old days they used false muzzles to help size their bullets right at the muzzle when loading.
The false muzzle sized and engraved the bullet with rifling grooves and protected the muzzle from wear.
Doing it that way would allow the bullet to fill in part of the grooves without only relying on obturation.

Resizing isn’t an issue, though I’m not set up to do so. It’s something I figured I’d have to do, especially if I paper patched, but also to able to use that 285 grn bullet dropping around .456”.

There’s a fellow on THR that has a carbine made from a Walker. I’d absolutely love that with a Walker, Dragoon, or Ruger, but the Remington carbine, according to omnivore, just isn’t accurate beyond about 50 yds. Honestly I’ve never harvested anything beyond 80 yds and would be more than happy if that was my effective range, though for simplicity’s sake I’d sure like to zero at 100. Adding 150-200 FPS to the estimated velocity of my NMA would get it to about 1000 FPS, not exactly awe inspiring. Nice enough to 50 yds I guess.