Load DataTitan ReloadingLee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters Supply
Reloading EverythingInline FabricationRotoMetals2Wideners
Repackbox
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: Anybody know what the original load data was in .357 Magnum?

  1. #21
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    97
    Back in the '70s, a friend bought a Python. A partial box of Winchester lead-bullet ammo came with it. Those were the hottest .357 loads I've ever been around. I say 'been around' because I don't remember if I shot any of them or not but I do remember the bore was horribly fouled after only a few shots. Strips of lead several inches long came out.

    Many years later, I bought my first .357, a 586 S&W. It's favorite load was a 125 gr or 140 gr JHP over a healthy load of Unique. I won't list how much Unique because I can't remember which weight JHP I used. I started keeping records far too late in the game. I wanted to use the 358421 bullet in that gun but the 150 gr RCBS SWC shot better. Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but I always blamed that on Lyman's tinkering with Elmer's original design.

    What I also found out over time is that there's nothing that a 1400 fps load will do that a 1200-1250 fps load won't, except shoot flatter at ranges that I can't hit anything anyway.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,222
    Alliant CURRENTLY lists 14.8/2400 as their max charge with a 158 gr. bullet, though a jacketed one of hollow-point design, seated to 1.575". It yields 1265 f/s from a 10"(!!!)barrel, probably un-vented. I wonder the following things (without really expecting any concrete nor confident answers):
    1.) Would the use of a (higher-lubricity) hard-cast LSWC with an identical load yield a higher velocity +/- lower chamber pressure, without serious change in accuracy?
    2.) Would seating either 158 gr. projectile to the SAAMI Max 1.590" (cylinder length allowing) lower chamber pressures sufficiently to warrant exceeding the 14.8 gr. upper-limit charge weight by up to 0.5 grains?
    3.) If we're "maxed out" in our use of Alliant 2400, would abandonning tradition for the use of other propellants, such as 300-MP, H4227, H110, or VVN105 or N110 enable us to get closer to the original factory specs, without shaking apart our 6-shot N-Frame S&Ws, .357 RedHawks & Blackhawks (6-shot ONLY), T/Cs & F.A. Single actions?
    MY answers, in the absence of testing, are "Probably", "Maybe", and "It might be worth trying". respectively.
    The cold realities of MY situation are that MY .357 Magnum has a 4" barrel, and I'VE NEVER been able to get 2400 to burn completely in ANY handgun caliber, in ANY barrel shorter than 7.5". I don't know if it's worth blowing yet more unburned powder through the tubes in pursuit of the original (if memory serves) 158 gr. @ 1450 f/s from a 6.5" barrel, nor 158 gr. @ 1550 f/s from the 8 & 3/8" barrels. I guess that's up to the individual reloader.
    Early on, I, too, tried the 13.5/2400/158 gr. SWC load in .38 Special cases and it clocked in the (VERY) low 1200s in my Police Service Six. I tried the 15.0/2400/158 LSWC (max recommended, at the time) and got just under 1300 f/s from a 4" barrel. I ended up using 8.0/Unique/158 LSWC, or 9.4/Herco/158 LSWC, and obtained velocities clustered very closely around 1280 f/s. Since 1982 (when I bought the revolver), I've run a fairly steady diet (over 60%) of the latter 2 loads through my PS6, despite both loads later being revised downward. My revolver shoots as well now as it did in 1982. No looseness, no end-shake, no nothing. That's according to various gunsmiths, not me.
    YMMV
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master


    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aberdeen, South Dakota
    Posts
    7,136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    Alliant CURRENTLY lists 14.8/2400 as their max charge with a 158 gr. bullet, though a jacketed one of hollow-point design, seated to 1.575". It yields 1265 f/s from a 10"(!!!)barrel, probably un-vented. I wonder the following things (without really expecting any concrete nor confident answers):
    1.) Would the use of a (higher-lubricity) hard-cast LSWC with an identical load yield a higher velocity +/- lower chamber pressure, without serious change in accuracy?
    2.) Would seating either 158 gr. projectile to the SAAMI Max 1.590" (cylinder length allowing) lower chamber pressures sufficiently to warrant exceeding the 14.8 gr. upper-limit charge weight by up to 0.5 grains?
    3.) If we're "maxed out" in our use of Alliant 2400, would abandonning tradition for the use of other propellants, such as 300-MP, H4227, H110, or VVN105 or N110 enable us to get closer to the original factory specs, without shaking apart our 6-shot N-Frame S&Ws, .357 RedHawks & Blackhawks (6-shot ONLY), T/Cs & F.A. Single actions?
    MY answers, in the absence of testing, are "Probably", "Maybe", and "It might be worth trying". respectively.
    The cold realities of MY situation are that MY .357 Magnum has a 4" barrel, and I'VE NEVER been able to get 2400 to burn completely in ANY handgun caliber, in ANY barrel shorter than 7.5". I don't know if it's worth blowing yet more unburned powder through the tubes in pursuit of the original (if memory serves) 158 gr. @ 1450 f/s from a 6.5" barrel, nor 158 gr. @ 1550 f/s from the 8 & 3/8" barrels. I guess that's up to the individual reloader.
    Early on, I, too, tried the 13.5/2400/158 gr. SWC load in .38 Special cases and it clocked in the (VERY) low 1200s in my Police Service Six. I tried the 15.0/2400/158 LSWC (max recommended, at the time) and got just under 1300 f/s from a 4" barrel. I ended up using 8.0/Unique/158 LSWC, or 9.4/Herco/158 LSWC, and obtained velocities clustered very closely around 1280 f/s. Since 1982 (when I bought the revolver), I've run a fairly steady diet (over 60%) of the latter 2 loads through my PS6, despite both loads later being revised downward. My revolver shoots as well now as it did in 1982. No looseness, no end-shake, no nothing. That's according to various gunsmiths, not me.
    YMMV
    #1, it sure seems like there is a significant boost to cast bullets. Where a 158 grain jacketed hollow point or flat point is topped out around 1300 fps with modern data, with a 158 grain cast bullet, 1400 fps is very possible with normal length revolvers.

    #2, .015" amounts to just about nothing. You won't see any gains.

    #3, yes, H110, 300-MP, and N110 can send bullets faster than 2400 in most cases. I've never tried N105, and you will not see any boost with 4227. All of the revolvers you list are very durable, and will last a long time on any 357 magnum loads. You can also include the GP100 and 8 shot Redhawks in that list. I'd say you could include the SP101 as well, but nobodies wrist has ever survived longer than the gun.

    In regards to durability, the 357 magnum is not that hard on guns unless it is shoehorned into something that was never designed for it. The J frame and K frame being the big examples. I have no hard evidence, but I believe the lightning fast 125 grain bullets to be far worse for a revolver than even old school 158 grain loads.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    wv
    Posts
    477
    I have used 14.6 gr. of 2400 with the H&G #51, at about 160gr. Cronies at an even 1200 fps out of a 3" Ruger Speed Six. These days it is 14 gr as my go to top end load. FWIW

  5. #25

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy dimaprok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Evergreen state
    Posts
    424
    Larry Gibson Have you pressure tested 125gr JHP with 20-22gr of H110/W296? Some books show load data up to 22gr, I plugged the numbers in to QuickLoad and in that range its all above max pressure. Also even at 20gr it appears like its going to be compressed. I shot these in my GP 100 but afraid that in the long run it might damage the gun. I chrono this bullet traveling at 1500fps and more from 4.2" barrel. You mentioned getting even more velocity from blue dot? Was it with 6.5" barrel? I got a can of blue dot.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by dimaprok; 10-26-2020 at 05:25 PM.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    211
    158gr Horn XTP, 15.0gr A2400, New Starline Cases, CCI std small pistol primers, crimped in crimp groove

    1,398 fps -- 5 1/2" Freedom Arms M97 -- 5 shots at 5 long paces and 65 deg F (5,000 ft) Competition Electronics

    1,316 fps -- 2 3/4" S&W M66-8 -- 6 shots at the muzzle, 60 deg F (5,000 ft) Labradar.

    FWIW,

    Paul

  8. #28
    Boolit Master roverboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Moss,Tn.
    Posts
    1,110
    The craziest factory load in my opinion has got to be the Buffalo Bore 180 gr. cast load. I think it does right around 1400.
    Mrs. Hogwallop up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    211
    roverboy

    here are a couple of Labradar chrono results for the buffalo bore 180gr

    Labradar Muzzle Velocity (familiarization run)
    60 Deg F
    S&W M66-8 2.75" .357 Mag

    180gr Buff Bore …………………………………………………………………………….. 1,312 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds


    Also ran two Buff Bore 180s thru 16" Rossi M92 carbine ……………. 1,894 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds

    FWIW,

    Paul

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,305
    Quote Originally Posted by dimaprok View Post
    Larry Gibson Have you pressure tested 125gr JHP with 20-22gr of H110/W296? Some books show load data up to 22gr, I plugged the numbers in to QuickLoad and in that range its all above max pressure. Also even at 20gr it appears like its going to be compressed. I shot these in my GP 100 but afraid that in the long run it might damage the gun. I chrono this bullet traveling at 1500fps and more from 4.2" barrel. You mentioned getting even more velocity from blue dot? Was it with 6.5" barrel? I got a can of blue dot.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
    No I have not.....yet....

    I have tested 18 gr of 2400 under the Winchester 125 JHP in Winchester brass cases with 550 primers. That ran just over 1500 fps out of my 6" Ruger SS and gave 33,200 psi in the 7.94" Contender test barrel and 1771 fps.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    7br's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Bolivar, MO
    Posts
    927
    Quote Originally Posted by roverboy View Post
    The craziest factory load in my opinion has got to be the Buffalo Bore 180 gr. cast load. I think it does right around 1400.
    I am shooting the NOE 182 wfn gc with a near max charge of alliant 300mp and getting a little over 1400 out of a 10in Dan Wesson

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    7br aka Mark B.

    On the internet, I am 6ft tall, good looking and can dance.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern Minnesota
    Posts
    110
    Interesting post trying to make some loads for 180 missouri coated. Still looking gonna try h110 next.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    The older cartridges of the world says that 16 grains 2400 and a 158grain bullet duplicates original factory loading. I've never loaded 16 grains, but have loaded some at 15 grains with a 358156. The blackhawk I had at the time recoiled like starting 44 magnum loads.
    Jeff Cooper once wrote about loading 16.5 grains of 2400 behind a 158 SWC.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,551
    I have run 125 grain JHPs (Remington and Nosler) ahead of 17.5 grains of 2400 in my 4" M-686. Those clock @ 1425 FPS just like the Federal #357B loads my shop now authorizes. They hit 1500 FPS from the 7.5" BisHawk. They aren't as accurate as the 158 grain JSP or the #358156, but they are hell for velocity.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    760
    Old thread but I'll post anyway.
    The ammo people almost always test factory ammo from a test barrel that is closed with no cylinder gap.
    The arms manufacturers test that ammo for rifles in 26 inch barrel length and then sell you 22 inch barrelled rifles.
    Everything has been that way a long time.The pistol rounds are many times shot in a universal receiver same as a closed rifle barrel only shorter barreled.

  16. #36
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Terrace, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    5,245
    As someone smarter than i in physics has noted and demonstrated here on this forum. Velocities using identical loads from a 4" barreled pistol will be lower than from a 4" barreled revolver due to the additional distance between the nose of the bullet and when the bullet reaches the rifling. The distance of flight is without the affect of friction. In a pistol the bullet enters the rifling instantly or almost so. The cylinder gap in a revolver has less affect on velocity than the distance in free flight of the bullet.

    His observation was not mine but it does make sense and the author did provide calculations to emphasize his observation.

    Aside from aggressive marketing it would appear reported velocities would be attainable in a pistol of equal barrel length to that used by the manufacturer but less if used in a revolver of equal barrel length. I have not bought commercial ammuntion for any of my pistols in sometime. I have a friend who might give me a round or two of 10MM and we could compare rounds from his Glock and my GP-100.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Last edited by robertbank; 04-08-2021 at 07:09 PM. Reason: spelling
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  17. #37
    Boolit Master


    Burnt Fingers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Tejas
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    As someone smarter than i in physics has noted and demonstrated here on this forum. Velocities using identical loads from a 4" pistol will be lower than from a 4" revolver due to the additional distance between the nose of the bullet and when the bullet reaches the rifling. The distance of flight is without the affect of friction. In a pistol the bullet enters the rifling instantly or almost so. The cylinder gap in a revolver has less affect on velocity than the distance in free flight of the bullet.

    His observation was not mine but it does make sense and the author did provide calculations to emphasize his observation.

    Aside from aggressive marketing it would appear reported velocities would be attainable in a pistol of equal barrel length to that used by the manufacturer but less if used in a revolver of equal barrel length. I have not bought commercial ammuntion for any of my pistols in sometime. I have a friend who might give me a round or two of 10MM and we could compare rounds from his Glock and my GP-100.

    Take Care

    Bob

    There's one more thing.

    A 4" revolver has a 4" barrel PLUS the cylinder chamber.

    A 4" pistol has 4" total length. If your OAL is 1.50" you really only have a 2.5" barrel.
    NRA Benefactor.

  18. #38
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Terrace, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    5,245
    Went back to post and added "barreled" for those who might not understood the initial offering.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  19. #39
    Boolit Master



    ddixie884's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Avery, Texas
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    IIRC,....Keith's book SIXGUNS said the original was 158gr with 15.3grs of 2400

    One of my load data books shows 15.8gr was the max, . . . that gave me 1364fps from a 5" 686, (Missouri hardcast & coated commercial bullet)

    A more sane 14.7gr gave me 1275fps

    That is what I was thinking.......
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
    gary@2texastrucks.com
    Gary D. Peek

  20. #40
    Boolit Master Speedo66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    622
    I notice plenty of hot loads with 125g. Lots of internet talk about not using very many of those loads in K frames due to the possibility of cracking the weak flat spot on the forcing cone.

    Haven't seen it mentioned here, so just thought I'd throw that out as a caution.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check