Anybody know what the original load data was in .357 Magnum?

[roverboy]

I was just reading about Douglas Wesson and his hunting trips with .357 Magnum. He killed elk, antelope, moose, and grizzly with his 8.75" .357 back in the day. The load was 158 gr. cast and was supposed to give 1500 fps or more out of a gun like his and over 800 ft. lbs. Anybody know what powder charge and powder was used? I read that it was developed with 2400 though. I've worked up to 15.5 gr. and 158 gr. cast. It kicks but, didn't give any extraction problems or flattened primers. Thanks

[Hickok]

The original load data was far too hot by today's standards. It quickly beat up revolvers. Also, velocities listed in bygone days was highly optimistic, in other words....they lied.

[Wally]

In my Ruger 6.5" Barrel Blackhawk...158 SWC-GC / 14.0 grains 2400---1,509 FPS Average velocity....a M-27 with an 8" barrel... 1,429 FPS. No extraction problems. I seldom shoot such loads; I just tested them out to see what the velocity would be.

[Outpost75]

Velocity figures back in those days were based upon solid barrels and not revolvers.

Also, chronographs then were very primitive and the numbers were highly optiomistic.

Handload data then was seldom pressure tested outside of the powder manufacturers.

Relying upon subjective pressure signs is both unreliable and dangerous.

[robertbank]

16 Gr 4227 avg 1629fps out of my Rossi 20" barrel Lver Action. The same load ran 1150fps out of my Ruger GP-100 4.2". Both loads using the Lyman 358477 bullet using water quenched WW alloy.

This load is the maximum load recommended in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition I experienced no leading in either firearm.

I do not shoot this load often.

Take Care
Bob

[derek45]

IIRC,....Keith's book SIXGUNS said the original was 158gr with 15.3grs of 2400

One of my load data books shows 15.8gr was the max, . . . that gave me 1364fps from a 5" 686, (Missouri hardcast & coated commercial bullet)

A more sane 14.7gr gave me 1275fps

[Bazoo]

The older cartridges of the world says that 16 grains 2400 and a 158grain bullet duplicates original factory loading. I've never loaded 16 grains, but have loaded some at 15 grains with a 358156. The blackhawk I had at the time recoiled like starting 44 magnum loads.

[El Bibliotecario]

When I first began loading .357 rounds I loaded some Lyman 358156 linotype bullets with 15.0 grains 2400. At the time this was the late Charles 'Skeeter' Skelton's maximum recommended load. Following the "dangerous practice of relying upon subjective pressure signs" I had no problems. I didn't need that much power, so went to Skelton's pet load of 13.5 grains 2400 seating the same bullet high in a .38 Special case, no doubt another dangerous practice. I used that load for years.

I recall that the big problem with early factory .357 ammunition was bullets which were so soft that they rapidly leaded the bore.

[Larry Gibson]

Having pressure tested both Hercules and Alliant 2400 under 150 - 162 gr cast bullets I've found 14.5 gr 2400 (doesn't matter which flavor as they are the same excepting lot to lot variation) under a 162 gr 358156 (fully dressed) and seat to and crimped in the forward crimp groove runs very close to the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi. The original loads were indeed heavier because at the time there was only the large N frame S&W revolver and the Colt Python revolvers made for the cartridge. Those level of loads were fine for those two revolvers as they were for the Colt and Ruger SAs chambered in 357 magnum. The problem arose with the introduction of the M19 K frame S&W revolver in 357 magnum. It was the darling of law enforcement for many years but it was quickly learned that a diet of those original loads would soon rattle the M19 apart. Thus the factories "dumbed down" 357 Magnum ammunition to the levels we have today. I have pressure tested quite a few various 357 magnum factory loads produced from the mid '60s through the late 2010 time frame. The tested psi's run from 23,000 upwards of 34,000 psi with most in the 28 - 32,000 psi range.

[jonp]

Blue Dot I think but I would not be surprised at more than max Unique loads although 2400 is also likely. I echo the other posts in that the velocity and pressure was more of a "I think this is what it is and at least the gun still works" rule of thumb. I'd not do that myself and I've run some pretty stout loads through my Blackhawks. If you think you need to run that high from a 357 then move up to a 41, 44 or 45LC.

[jonp]

Having pressure tested both Hercules and Alliant 2400 under 150 - 162 gr cast bullets I've found 14.5 gr 2400 (doesn't matter which flavor as they are the same excepting lot to lot variation) under a 162 gr 358156 (fully dressed) and seat to and crimped in the forward crimp groove runs very close to the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi. The original loads were indeed heavier because at the time there was only the large N frame S&W revolver and the Colt Python revolvers made for the cartridge. Those level of loads were fine for those two revolvers as they were for the Colt and Ruger SAs chambered in 357 magnum. The problem arose with the introduction of the M19 K frame S&W revolver in 357 magnum. It was the darling of law enforcement for many years but it was quickly learned that a diet of those original loads would soon rattle the M19 apart. Thus the factories "dumbed down" 357 Magnum ammunition to the levels we have today. I have pressure tested quite a few various 357 magnum factory loads produced from the mid '60s through the late 2010 time frame. The tested psi's run from 23,000 upwards of 34,000 psi with most in the 28 - 32,000 psi range.

What velocity were you getting out of those 14.5gr 2400 loads, Larry

[Kosh75287]

<smiling & giggling at EL BIBLIOTECARIO's "dangerous practices" post> Ud esta' con Amigos, mi Hermano.

[Norske]

My old copy of "Cooper on Handguns" referred to a no-longer-made VV powder. The original powder charges actually wore out N-frame Smith revolvers.

[Walks]

I tried the recommended load out of the Lyman CBH #1 when I 1st started my own reloading setup. Got a used M19-2 from a retired LAPD Officer. Had one box of once-fired brass, a #358156 2cav and a new can of 2400.

BOY HOWDY !!!!
I was ready for some real good loads. No light stuff like my Dad loaded for his .357Mag Revolvers, No 14.5grs of 2400 for me. That old Manual said XX.Xgrs was Max. I cast those bullets out of a Lino/COWW - 50/50 alloy.
M19 had full size target grips. And I needed them to keep a hold of the Monster I had unleased.

Then next .357Mag loads were with 14.5grs, just like Dad. And a whole lot of the "Skeeter Loads" with 13.5grs with the #358156 seated and crimped in the lower crimp groove in the .38Spl cases, until I could afford enough .357Mag Brass.

I DON'T RECOMMEND ANY LOADS SUCH AS I HAVE DISCUSSED ABOVE. THESE ARE DANGEROUS !!! DO NOT USE !!!!!

I only load to the published loads in the most recent Lyman Manual. And shoot them in heavy framed revolvers only.

[Larry Gibson]

What velocity were you getting out of those 14.5gr 2400 loads, Larry

Right at 1400 fps out of my 6" barreled Ruger Security Six using Alliant 2400, Winchester 357 magnum cases (brass not nickeled) with WSP primers. Again, that load hovers right around the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi as measured in my Contender test barrel via Oehler m43 PBL. I prefer to use 14.0 gr as my "standard" magnum load with the same components which runs 1350 fps at 33 - 34,000 psi +/-.

"And a whole lot of the "Skeeter Loads" with 13.5grs with the #358156 seated and crimped in the lower crimp groove in the .38Spl cases, until I could afford enough .357Mag Brass."

Shot a lot of those also but a word of caution; that load produces more PSI than a lot of factory 357 loads..... It runs 31 32,000 psi +/-........

[9.3X62AL]

I have run LOTS of #358156s ahead of 13.5 grains of 2400/CCI #500 in 4" 686, 6.5" pre-27, and 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk. From the 4" barrel they get about 1225 FPS, just like the 158 grain JHPs in the W-W Super-X loads my shop carried for years. In the 7.5" barrel these run about 100 FPS faster, IIRC. My K-frames are 38 Specials and 32/20s. At least 1500 rounds each have run through the three revolvers listed over the last 30 years. I never perceived of these loads as being especially hot--brass life is lengthy and extraction is easy (cases fall free more often than not).

And now for the lawyer-speak......IF YOU EVEN DREAM OF USING THIS DATA TO LOAD YOUR OWN AMMUNITION, YOU BETTER WAKE UP AND APOLOGIZE. The info is shared for entertainment value only, so don't try this at home. I have no idea what the ammo companies loaded the 357 Magnum with 85 years ago. I feel certain that whatever the data was, it was illegal, immoral, and high in both carbohydrates and saturated fats--just like anything else that tastes good. You have been fairly warned.

[robertbank]

Al I hope you don't expect ME to accept responsibility for MY actions surely. That would be so not in vogue. :>)

Glad to see you about. Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Ours was rather quiet. We spared a Turkey but I am afraid a pig made a sizeable donation.

Take Care

Bob
ps picked up a 10MM GP-100. Feeling the warmth.

[roverboy]

Thanks everybody. I was just curious about it. I knew the original loads were a little "HOT". My 6" Security Six handled the 158 gr. cast 15.5 gr. 2400 load just fine but, like I said kicked hard. I'm not gonna do anything like that much. I also loaded a few 180 gr. cast with 13.5 and 14.0 gr. 2400. They didn't give any problems either but, I really needed the rubber Pachmyr grips.

[Larry Gibson]

The Ruger security Six revolver is basically a DA Black Hawk and is certainly heck for stout. Back when I first got mine I worked up to a max load of Blue Dot under 125 gr Jacketed HPs that was listed in a very popular load manual (hard copy not internet). I had no sign of pressure as cases easily extracted. Out of the 6" barrel they clocked a sizzling 1690 fps fps 15' from the muzzle. I shot probably 500 of those Winchester 125 gr JHPs over that Blue Dot load through the Ruger w/o even any hitch and they were death and destruction on rabbits and rock chucks and a couple coyote. Mind you, factory Winchester 125 JHPs, known to be a "man stopper", ran 1473 fps out of the Ruger and pushed 28,200 psi. That Blue Dot load also ran right at 2000 fps out of a 10" Contender with excellent accuracy......a "smokin" load! I thought I had the "holy grail" of 357 magnum loads.......

Then I got the M43 Oehler and pressure tested them......That Blue Dot load was pushing 42,200 psi. Perhaps that was "ok" as an original 357 magnum load but I'm certainly glad I didn't shoot any in my S&W M19! I would back it off to 36,000 psi were i to load 125 JHPs over Blue Dot again........

I finished shooting the loads I had left in the Contender and and pretty much stick to shooting the 358156 over the 14.0 gr 2400 load as my "magnum" 357 load. BTW, I never got the "pressure spikes" with Blue Dot in the 357 magnum under the 125 gr JHP as was reported.

[megasupermagnum]

It seems everything has already been covered. About the N frame, I've never heard of one coming apart from the first loads. They were higher pressure than today for sure, but the pressures were not all that insane. I'm sure somewhere Larry has that info posted. As for the N frame wearing out, I've never heard that. The same gun later went on to become the 41 and 44 magnum, so I really doubt the 357 magnum recoil put any undue stress on the gun. The N frame was purpose built just for the 357 magnum with those loads!