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Thread: 45-70-500 for the Trapdoor 1881 rifle.

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    45-70-500 for the Trapdoor 1881 rifle.

    Good evening gents. I have an 1881 model 1873 Trapdoor Springfield and I need a bullet mold matching the exact specifications as set out by Spencer Wolf in his book 'Loading cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and carbine'. In the book Spencer lists three companies that manufacture the exact mold required for this project, Nei, Saeco and Rapine. The only problem is that the only company still producing this mold is Saeco and is offered through Redding. However Redding informed me that they do not conduct direct sales and I could special order it through 'Herron Security and sport' here in Aus. The problem here is they do not reply to any queries. If anyone has read the book you will see how exacting Spencer is with regard to the measurement of the bullet and shell to arrive at the accuracy he seems to achieve. I have attached a copy of the bullet I need below. I am hoping there is someone I have been unable to find in your great country that might make this mould.
    Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    Try Cast bullet Engineering, he ships internationally! I use that exact bullet in my trapdoor.

    https://www.castbulletengineering.co...moulds/458-cal
    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad *** Wallace View Post
    Try Cast bullet Engineering, he ships internationally! I use that exact bullet in my trapdoor.

    https://www.castbulletengineering.co...moulds/458-cal
    he's in Qld mate ---might be just down the road!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Good evening gents. I have an 1881 model 1873 Trapdoor Springfield and I need a bullet mold matching the exact specifications as set out by Spencer Wolf in his book 'Loading cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and carbine'. In the book Spencer lists three companies that manufacture the exact mold required for this project, Nei, Saeco and Rapine. The only problem is that the only company still producing this mold is Saeco and is offered through Redding. However Redding informed me that they do not conduct direct sales and I could special order it through 'Herron Security and sport' here in Aus. The problem here is they do not reply to any queries. If anyone has read the book you will see how exacting Spencer is with regard to the measurement of the bullet and shell to arrive at the accuracy he seems to achieve. I have attached a copy of the bullet I need below. I am hoping there is someone I have been unable to find in your great country that might make this mould.
    Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bob I have a couple mates that got molds from Tom at Accurate in the US - they very happy with the quality and quick turnaround but what about CBE ???

  5. #5
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    BobIn Aus

    If you're replicating the M1884 ammunition then that bullet loaded as per Spence's instructions will do well. However, if you want the best accuracy with with "field ready" loads (as opposed to range loads not conducive to field carry) then I suggest slugging the bore of your rifle and getting a mould that will cast to .001 over groove diameter. I use that bullet from a Rapine mould that drops 16-1 alloyed bullets at .462. I shoots excellently in my M1884 action/barrel.

    You might read; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

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    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey guys, thanks for the info. I am trying to duplicate the bullet that Spencer used in his book. The one from CBE I think is for the Martini Henry. The bullet base is too short as is the nose. I have spoken to Tom at Accurate several times and purchased a couple of molds from him - have been totally happy with his molds. He is easy to speak with and very obliging. When I sent him a copy of Spencers .45-70-500 Arsenal bullet, he told me that he was unable to produce that bullet as he cannot cut a bullet with a round nose and he pointed me in the direction of his 46-500D with a small meplat of .18. If I can't find a close copy of Spencers Arsenal bullet I might to go with Tom's 46-500D. Except for the meplat, the 46-500D is the same in all aspects as Spencers Arsenal bullet. I do like the round nose it has that traditional look, I don't know if the meplat will cause and problem with regard to accuracy. Attached is the 46-500D.Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
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    You may find that, with the proper round-nosed top punch in your lubrisizer, the small flat on the boolit nose will disappear after sizing.

    I have a Hoch nose-pour version of the Ideal 457125 500-gr Government boolit, which necessarily has a flat spot on the nose where the sprue cuts off. This is unnoticeable after sizing/lubing, and the boolit shoots fine.

    The real Government boolit (IIRC) had a slightly dished base, which would require a more complicated mould to cast. All the moulds I’ve seen (including mine) cast the flat base.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Larry, thanks for the info. I see quite the expert on the trapdoor. That was some read. Looks like you are all over Spencer Wolf. I have only read page one and have to go back to pages 2 - 5. I was pressed for time yesterday and only signed in to see if I had any replies. I'll get back to the rest today. I watched 7 youtube videos by a bloke called 'Thekoba49' on preparing and shooting ammunition for the trapdoor. He was very exacting and possibly to the same degree as Spencer. If your interested search 'Thekoba49 Shooting 45-70 black powder ammo 1873 Trapdoor'

    Bob

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    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Bent Ramrod, looks like I might be going with the Accurate mold 46-500D with the meplat. The right Saeco mold wont be produced until next year sometime (unknown when) as they cant even their popular molds produced on time at the moment let alone a special order like the Saeco. When and if it does come it is going to cost $311.00. So I'm thinking I will go with the 46-500D. You mentioned that you used a proper round-nosed top punch to round out the meplat a bit and it shot fine. Can you tell me the name of the top punch you used? I might see if I can get my hands on one of those. Thanks for the info.
    Bob

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    The Lyman top punch for the 457125 is #374.

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    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey thanks for that.

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    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I am totally confused, you have a trapdoor and by the posts of this thread, there is only one boolit that will work????? Over the years, I have accumulated a number of accurate molds for the 45/70.

    There are many, that work and I defy anyone to use a special boolit (and only a special boolit) and not have success with a rifle over 100 years old using open sights

    L-R Lyman Postell 520gn, CBE 500gn, Pedersoli 500gn Spire Point, Lyman (Mathews) 495gn Tapered spire point, 420gn Hensley & Gibbs

    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

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    i find his to be true with my 1/22 twist 45/70. out to 250 yards a 500 grain bullet is super accurate. after 250 yards not so much or at all. ive settled on a 425 grain bullets and it is very accurate at any range. your trapdoor is a 1/22 twist. if you shooting 250 yards or less then your in the money with the 500 grain bullet. i way out their you might want to go lighter. also the most important thing with a trapdoor is to slug the barrel and make your bullet the same size as your bore. some trapdoors are 460 or larger..

  14. #14
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    Bob, I doubt that you'll be disappointed with the 460-500D. It shoots quite well from both my Cimarron Highwall and my Pedersoli RB...I'm talking about 6"-8" iron-sight groups @ 300M off the bench. Btw my mold drops .461-.462 at 512-515 gr. from 30-1 alloy and I pan-lube (Emmert's) before running them through a .460 sizer.

    Bill
    "I'm not often right but I've never been wrong."

    Jimmy Buffett
    "Scarlet Begonias"

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    is your rifles a 1/18 twist or a 1/22 twist? the trapdoor is a 1/22 twist. yours may be a 1/18 twist. that makes a big difference in what shoots in the gun.

  16. #16
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I shoot several different cast bullets in my TD from 210 gr up to 500 gr. The 500 gr bullet was found to the more accurate bullet out to 1000 yards back in 1882 out of the TD with it's 22" twist. The 500 gr bullet still is today. I use a Rapine copy of the government 500 gr bullet, the 460-500, and find it more accurate than the 40-405 gr bullets.
    Larry Gibson

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    thanks for that input.

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    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey Gents, thanks for all the input. My TD is 1 /22 twist. Larry, I am unable to obtain a Rapine mold (out of service I believe). The Saeco is the next accurate copy of the arsenal bullet and is offered through Redding but that is unobtainable here in Aus. I ordered the 460 500D a couple of days back and will see how we go with 20-1 lead tin.

    Bob C.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Bad *** Wallace, I do believe there are quite a number of bullets that work in the TD but my aim is to get the accuracy that Spence Wolf and the army of the day achieved with the armory bullet I described above. I also intend to compress 70gr of black powder into a pellet in our modern cases following Spence's directions. Anyway we will see. (looks like someone doesn't like the word ***)

    Bob C.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    My Lyman 457125 shoots very well in my 1884 TD. So far out to 600yds.
    beltfed/arnie

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check