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Thread: The real story on Gas Checks

  1. #61
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    I think I have read all of this discussion, and can't recall where anyone mentioned the effect of friction of the barrel on the cast lead bullet. The surface friction at speeds over 1000 is enough to melt the surface skin of the lead. Once the skin is melted, then gas jets can blow through.

    The gas checks don't stop the melting of the lead skin due to friction. But they do scrape that melted lead along in front of it, and hydraulically the liquid skin of lead stays where it started, eventually solidifying.

    The gas checks also seal the melted skin of lead from the gas jets otherwise seeking to blow past it.

    Just my opinion, and I am sticking to it.


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  2. #62
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    Only problem with that theory Duke is that the lead does not melt. Lead absorbs heat very slowly and it is not in the bore nearly long enough to get hot enough to melt. It can be blasted off the sides of a poor fitting boolit much as an acetylene torch cuts steel but melt it doesn't.

    Some people think that the check prevents the hot burning powder gases from "melting" the base of the boolit. If that were true why doesn't paper or plastic shotgun wads show any signs of burning or melting? Cast boolits do not "melt" in your firearm.

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  3. #63
    Boolit Man
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    Just a bit more "food for thought". When Handloader Magazine was fairly new, there was an experiment shooting lead boolits from a revolver with no barrel attached. So, the slug was only impacted by the pressure and the cylinder. The pictures of the boolits looked like mushrooms. I don't recall the caliber or pressure levels involved. The amount of mushrooming had to involve what happened after exiting the cylinder. Gives some idea of the effects the pressure is causing down stream. Maybe someone can find the article and share more info.

  4. #64
    Boolit Mold
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    Smile

    What year was that article in "handloader"?

  5. #65
    Boolit Man
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    I found my old list of index subjects, which is valid from issue #1 up thru 1996. I will see if I can ferret out the article and will post it if I can find it.

  6. #66
    Boolit Mold lesslethal's Avatar
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    This is my first post comment. I was hoping to get at least just one of my many questions answered, but golleeee, This one thread was like goin' to college. Man did I ever find the
    right place. Oh-boy!!

  7. #67
    Boolit Buddy
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    YEa buddy!You come to the right place if you want "opinions" from the folks that know!

    I 'check' cause that is the way I was taught. Bit more bother, but never had a big leading issue and have 'overloaded' like a dummy. I soften my checks too. Why? Well, that is the way I was taught. So your guestion now is "do I do everything the way I was taught"? Well No. I have learned abit, (from these pages on this site!), and employ my education every where I can. {I was taught to 'Hog Tallow" paper patches on 45-70 Trap door rounds!} There is more 'folklore' out there than one can imagine. That is why I love this site!...

    There is a lot to consider when boolit making, reloading and shooting. As noted above, listen to the experts, be smart enought to identify them, and follow safety procedures in all that you do. Making your own is a kick.... It is fun, if you are not hurting. Safety. Safety, Safety. There,,,, I have told you three times..... Nose Dive....

  8. #68
    Boolit Master
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    I have been reading some postings on shotgun slug loading and the ones that get the best accuracy in smoothbore barrels have a heavy card wad under the slug. I think maybe this acts similar to the way a gas check does when the projectile leaves the barrel in that it is a flat platform under the slug to alolow an even push out the muzzle so the slug doesn't cant on exit and fly off into never-never land.

  9. #69
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotman View Post
    I will make a comment I dont rememberof digging out any boolits with the gas check attached. do any of you? rick
    I don't recall digging out a cast bullet that failed to keep its gas check, and I loaded them hot in a 30-06.
    Regards,

    Molly

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  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    gas checkfalling off

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    I don't recall digging out a cast bullet that failed to keep its gas check, and I loaded them hot in a 30-06.
    I have seen some that stay on and some that fall off.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    I don't recall digging out a cast bullet that failed to keep its gas check, and I loaded them hot in a 30-06.
    Try some old Lyman press-on (as opposed to modern crimp-on) gas checks. Sometimes you get two holes in the target for the price of one!

    -HF
    Last edited by HangFireW8; 12-09-2010 at 10:22 PM. Reason: spelling of "two".... erg.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master blaser.306's Avatar
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    Smile

    I've found lots of gas checks flatened out or inverted at the steel backstop . I don't have any question that they stay attached after launch ! After all they are re-seated with a several thousand pound sledgehammer at firing!!!!!

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by HangFireW8 View Post
    Try some old Lyman press-on (as opposed to modern crimp-on) gas checks. Sometimes you get to holes in the target for the price of one!-HF
    Hi Hangfire,

    Believe it or not, an awful lot of them (if not the majority) WERE the old Lyman press-on GC. I can still remember shooting through sheets of newspaper at various ranges to see if / where any were coming off. Never found any evidence of it. This was with 311291 and 311290, whose gas check shanks were big enough that some of the first Hornady GC would shave lead when they were seated. I had to flare them to use them.

    That said, I DO recall some complaints years ago about undersize gas check shanks that let GCs fall off, though I haven't heard that for quite a while now.

    But remember, CB's were originally DESIGNED for the gas check to fall off, just like the cotton patch falls off of muzzle loading round balls. If someone has one of the old Ideal molds, this might be what's going on. Easily fixed by any half competent machinist though ...
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  14. #74
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    i dunno imade a little experiment like i use one 9mm shell put a lead bullet (lubed with lee liquid alox) on top of the filled of titegroup brass case , i did not et the bullet just left it on top whit a little opening in the side from wich the flames form the combustion will come out tru., i lighted the powder inside the brass casin, and flames came out tru the little opening afterwards, i touched the lead and burned my finger because the hot alox melted, but mo molten lead anywhere to be found.
    even tough i put 7 grains of titegroup on the 9mm cassing.

  15. #75
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    News Update: I have develope a blister.

  16. #76
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    Dug some out with GC's attached, some that had shed GC's (probably in flight), and dug out some GC' without the projectile that probably shed at time of impact. Lots of variables. Good thread tho!
    1Shirt!
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  17. #77
    Boolit Master XWrench3's Avatar
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    i have always thought that the current gas checks are really only half of what we need. there should be two of them, soldered or welded together back to back. that way, the backwards facing check, would act as a cup to be forced outward against the bore effectively completely sealing the pressure of the burning powder. the crimp on portion would securely attact it to the base of the cast bullet.
    Silver and Gold are for rich men. Lead and Brass is MY silver and gold! And when push comes to shove, one of my silver and gold pieces will be more valuable than a big pile of actual silver and gold.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by XWrench3 View Post
    i have always thought that the current gas checks are really only half of what we need. there should be two of them, soldered or welded together back to back. that way, the backwards facing check, would act as a cup to be forced outward against the bore effectively completely sealing the pressure of the burning powder. the crimp on portion would securely attact it to the base of the cast bullet.
    This elegant theory just doesn't work in practice. It's simple enough to test: seat an upside down gas check half way down the neck and put a drop of super-glue on it before seating the bullet with the regular gas check. Young gas will STILL seep around the doubled gas check and etch the bullet.

    There's another way to seal the bore and keep ALL the propellent gas off the bullet, and there's no guessing about it. Just take a small tuft of cotton or dacron about half the size of an ordinary marble, and push it down the neck into the combustion chamber. Then add a pinch of ordinary Cream of Wheat. It only takes about enough to half fill the neck of a 30-06 case. Then seat your bullet.

    When you shoot this load, study the target carefully. You will notice that the bullet hole doesn't have the usual dark edges. A control load without the cotton & Cream of Wheat WILl have the usual dark edges on its bullet holes. The reason for this is that the Cream of Wheat load prevents young gas from putting a layer of soot on the bullet. No soot, no black edges to the bullet hole.

    Also, no gas impingement on the bullet means there is no need of the gas check in the first place. That's all a gas check was ever designed to handle. In fact, if you read early shooting documents, you will find that the gas check was often referred to as a 'copper patch', equating it to the cloth patches used in BP muzszle loading rifles.

    You can load lead bullets as cast to high velocity and never get a trace of leading in your barrel. I've loaded 6.5x55 ammo with MAXIMUM Hornady handbook loads using bullets just as they drop from the mold: No lube, no sizing, no gas check. Accuracy won't win any CBA matches, but you won't lose any deer with it either. You can also load them down to levels suitable for popping tin cans or squirrels.

    There's nothing magic about it. The same technique works with ANY rifle. I've gotten the same results with 7.65X54R, 7.65x39, 30-06, 30-40 Krag, 6.5x55 and 30-30 Winchester. This was also written up years ago in the Cast Bullet Association's newsletter, and has since been confirmed by many other shooters. Other shooters report similar results using almost any fine granular fillers like the polyethylene dust used to protect shot in shotgun shells.

    The only drawbacks I've found is the slightly reduced accuracy, and the need to be particular about oiling your bore when you are done shooting. These loads don't use any lube, so they can't leave a thin protective layer of grease in the bore like regular cast bullets do. So the bore is susceptable to rusting if you don't oil it at the end of the day.
    Last edited by Molly; 12-27-2010 at 03:43 PM.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  19. #79
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    Wow, there's so much I've missed in the old publications. No lube at all, just achieving 100% obturation is all that's needed to stop leading?

    I've certainly noticed cleaner targets when using Dacron, and I can increase the velocity of the 311041 unchecked in my 30-30 by at least 200 fps over the "lead point" simply by adding the filler, so I'm convinced the Dacron alone aids obturation significantly, it just never occurred to me to use it with another, compacting filler. I have also noticed that with Dacron, I can go all the way down to just lubing the space above the check and have no leading at very high velocities, and that if I don't I get a shiny-wet bore full of lube that causes flyers every three or four shots and worries me about barrel ringing.

    I was just discussing this a day or two ago with another member who was wondering why bore-riders don't lead the lands since there is no lube on the noses. I'm very much in the camp that argues that lube itself functions at least as much as a stop leak as it does a film lubricant, if not more.

    I'm also wondering if just a little smidgen of lube on your plain boolits with the dual fillers would improve accuracy?

    Gear

  20. #80
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    Hello, Guys, excellent post! I had two custom nose-pour moulds made up for my .22 Hornet, both identical, except one had g.c. these are flat nose copys of Ideal 22636, made by Fred Leeth, of Pioneer Products. from an alloy of Steriotype softened with soft lead, they weigh in at 55grs. sized .226 & lubed with Lyman Super Moly, which I doctor with a little beeswax & lanolin for firmer consistancy. The gas check version wears Hor. g.c. anealled. my best accuracy load for the plain base is 7.0gr. H4227 . The best accuracy load for the g.c. version is, 7.3gr. H4227. .7gr.! The only advantage I can see for the g.c. if only ACCURACY is the goal, is it's use in a match, to control any leading as may happen, if one fires too fast, as when chasing a condition, etc. Now gaining velocity is whole different matter. Best of luck!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check