43 Mauser kicking my butt

[oconeedan]

Here's the details. M71 Mauser carbine sporter, bore is beauiful. This is my first BPCR, and first one I had to make and form brass, so I know the problem is with my brass.
I started with new Starline 45-90 brass. After sizing in 43 Mauser dies, it chambered in the rifle, so I did not trim.
First time out, nothing would fire, dented primers. I put little O-rings on the top of the rim, forcing the rim to the bolt face, and it fired after that, and the fire formed brass looked good (to me).
So the 2nd time out, I'm thinking with fire formed brass, the brass would headspace on the shoulder, but it still would not fire. I had to use the O-rings again.
The brass must be moving forward on firing pin strike, and obviously, the rim of 45-90 is not as thick as 43 Mauser.
Any suggestions?
Unrelated, I think, I had one case separate at the shoulder on the 2nd firing. I did anneal (again my first) by holding with my fingers as I rolled in front of a torch for a few seconds. I can afford to lose a brass here and there, and expect it.
I am mainly concerned with not being able to fire without the O-rings.
Load..Lyman mould made for this rifle, 350gr, 85gr Olde Eynsford 1 1/2, WLR primers, SPG lube, drop tube and slightly compressed with .125 over powder card. I filled case to where the base of bullet would sit, then put in card, and seated bullet with press, so it is compressed the thickness of the card.
Thanks in advance, Dan

[BK7saum]

Well... there is the difference in the 0.090" 43 rim thickness and the 0.065" 45-90 rim thickness to overcome.

Did you resize between firings 1 and 2? If so, did you run the shellholder all the way up to the base of the die? if so, you pushed the shoulder back to far. But...since this is a low pressure cartridge, it may have have issues pushing the case head back to the breech face.

I would try to neck size only. Also, for the first fireforming I would seat the bullets long to force the case head against the breech face.

Really not sure what is going on. Headspace isn't right with your brass, but there are workarounds.

[ascast]

I suggest you buy some proper brass. Bertram makes it, Graf has it usually as well as others. Yes, its about $3 a case, but it works, and you can start shooting.

[justashooter]

agreed that adjusting seating death to engage rifling works in guns with standard chamber, but chambers can vary considerably. some time ago i sold a 71/84 with dies/cases and a homemade push thru swage to reduce .452 300 gr shillouette bullets from missouri bullet to .446", for use with 10-12 grains unique or a charge of 4198. a cheap way to get around the diameter problem. the 45-90 i used shouldered well after fireforming, with neck sizing only.

[sharps4590]

I've been shooting an 11.15 X 60R since the early 90's and a 10.5 X 47R for about 10 years. The latter is based on the former. I agree with ascast. One CAN make 45-90 brass work but the best way is to make a die and literally bend the rim forward until it properly headspaces. Several have done that, yours truly included but, proper Mauser "A" base brass is the best. As ascast mentioned yes, it is expensive but, once you have it you should be set for life. BACO used to sell some brass of their own forming for the 11.15 and it was made from 348 WCF. That was the first I bought and it is better than the Bertram, if it's available. It's also a lot less expensive.

[Gewehr-Guy]

I have run a drill bit into a small block of iron, to use as a rim swage. Use a steel rod inside the case as a punch, and it drives the base of the case down, while the rim bends slightly towards the case mouth.

[indian joe]

I've been shooting an 11.15 X 60R since the early 90's and a 10.5 X 47R for about 10 years. The latter is based on the former. I agree with ascast. One CAN make 45-90 brass work but the best way is to make a die and literally bend the rim forward until it properly headspaces. Several have done that, yours truly included but, proper Mauser "A" base brass is the best. As ascast mentioned yes, it is expensive but, once you have it you should be set for life. BACO used to sell some brass of their own forming for the 11.15 and it was made from 348 WCF. That was the first I bought and it is better than the Bertram, if it's available. It's also a lot less expensive.

how come 45/90 can work when they make brass from 348 ? - theys quite a bit of size difference (body diameter)

[nuclearcricket]

Baco uses a heavy duty industrial press to form some of their brass and often time they turn some off of the outside diameter hear the head/rim area. If you ever look really close at their reformed 44-77 brass you can see it, most of the marks are polished out but its there. That is part of the reason some of their brass is so expensive. I don't care for the Bertram brass but it is made to fit correctly. I have been given some, some once fired and some loaded but haven't fired any of it yet. I don't know if they have changed the process yet but it used to be that Bertram had a bad habit of splitting necks of firing and you needed to anneal their brass before you did anything else to it. Something to just keep in mind. What I have that has been fired was a very low pressure smokeless load that barely expanded the neck. I will most likely anneal those before doing anything else to them.
If you are going to form your brass from 45-90, I would size it in steps so that you don't push the shoulder back too far, just push it back far enough to be able to chamber and fire form and that might help prevent some of the headspace issues. I did this with forming a 45-70 in a 44-77 chamber. I just used a bushing die to form the neck and shoulder and it was just enough to headspace on the shoulder so that it would fire. I was a bit surprised but it came out as a nice looking case. Way short neck, but it was an experiment to see if it would work. The goal was to see if that method would work to change 45-70 into 44-60 and it looks as if it will work nicely when the time comes.
Sam

[Lead pot]

My experience with Bertram brass was less then bad. I got some of their .40-70 cases that didn't last 5 shots. The yellow brass they use is harder than hard.
I would check with Rocky Mountain Cartridge LLC if Buffalo Arms don't have it, they might have some over run in their stock I have used their brass and it's top quality about the cost of some Bertram or check RCC Brass. RCC is high priced.

[oconeedan]

I appreciate all of your suggestions. I am a "do it yourself-er", but I will likely take advice and buy brass already formed.

Some good questions...
I took the new brass, and sized it a little at a time until it would chamber. After fire forming, I did not size at all. Only cleaned, reprimed, and loaded. The bullet was seated long, with a full grease groove exposed, any longer and it may be crooked. The fit was tight enough to require a press to seat the bullet, even though I did not size after the first firing. I even tried a powder coated bullet and the extra couple thousandths diameter bulged the brass where it would not chamber at all. So I am pretty convinced I am using the biggest bullet I can chamber.

OK, so I have recommendations for Bertram brass, un-recommendations for Bertram brass, recommendations for BACO brass. BACO has a website that won't load completely, with a crazy web address starting with "the puzzle palace" , there is a price list but no contact information. Also, they offer 43 Mauser, 11.15X60R Bell, and 43 Mauser, 11.15X60R*, what's the difference besides a whole lot of $$ ? Does anyone have contact information for BACO?

This is a beautiful old rifle, and I don't want to give up on it.
THANKS!! Dan

[oconeedan]

Oh I see, BACO is Buffalo Arms Company. Their website search doesn't work too well, I will send them an email. Thanks.

[Lead pot]

If you can do a search for some .Bell .44 basic brass it has the proper base diameter of .518" the .44-77 brass is .516" at the base.
The .44 Bell basic and I used several hundred of those cases for my .44-90 BN Sharps. Those rims run between .078" to .083", mine did and I had to turn the rim thickness down to .078 to fit my chamber recess. What is the rim recess depth on your rifle?

You could do as my friend does. He has a Maynard and they have a very thick beveled rim what he does is he takes some copper flashing and cuts washers that fit the base and he solders the copper washers to the front of the rim and shaped the diameter. He get the head space perfect doing this.

[ascast]

I appreciate all of your suggestions. I am a "do it yourself-er", but I will likely take advice and buy brass already formed.

Some good questions...
I took the new brass, and sized it a little at a time until it would chamber. After fire forming, I did not size at all. Only cleaned, reprimed, and loaded. The bullet was seated long, with a full grease groove exposed, any longer and it may be crooked. The fit was tight enough to require a press to seat the bullet, even though I did not size after the first firing. I even tried a powder coated bullet and the extra couple thousandths diameter bulged the brass where it would not chamber at all. So I am pretty convinced I am using the biggest bullet I can chamber.

OK, so I have recommendations for Bertram brass, un-recommendations for Bertram brass, recommendations for BACO brass. BACO has a website that won't load completely, with a crazy web address starting with "the puzzle palace" , there is a price list but no contact information. Also, they offer 43 Mauser, 11.15X60R Bell, and 43 Mauser, 11.15X60R*, what's the difference besides a whole lot of $$ ? Does anyone have contact information for BACO?

This is a beautiful old rifle, and I don't want to give up on it.
THANKS!! Dan

I did not see any "BELL",
the first option is BERTRAM which will have to be neck sized down. Almost $4 each. Annel and lube, go slow. Trim to load-leave long, fire once then trimto length again at or near max length, that works for me. This stuff has 43 Mauser headstamp.
2nd is the 348 that has been through the musher. They use a hydraulic press that makes 348 into all kinds of stuff. they also rework the bases so as to be a proper " Mauser A " base. The headstamp will read 348 if you can still read it. This is not a problem unless you have many calibers made this way and somebody dumps them all in one pile.
I suggest you take a good look at your dies. The expander plug should be .446 give or take. It should not be .439. If its .439, then your sizer die is squeezing down too far. You need to fix that or trash them and buy proper dies. C&H have good dies of correct size.
For some reason, the world thinks 43 Mauser is 43 Spanish ( which one?) or 43 Russian, or on and on. Your using the old Lyman 446110? good, RCBS makes a good mold for this as well others. good luck

[Der Gebirgsjager]

O rings are cheap. I knew a fellow who had a Beaumont rifle and happily used O rings for years. Rifle was very accurate and he had good brass life.

[oconeedan]

O rings are cheap. I knew a fellow who had a Beaumont rifle and happily used O rings for years. Rifle was very accurate and he had good brass life.

O-rings are a pain in the fanny, when a lube groove full of lube is exposed.

Thanks for all advice above!

[sharps4590]

indianjoe, nuclearcricket is right. I guess when he says re-form that includes re-drawing brass as well. My 40-2.5, SS brass was made BACO from 30-40 Krag brass and it isn't 2.5 in. long so it had to be re-drawn. On my 11.15 X 60R brass from 348 WCF you can see enough of the head stamp there' no mistake. You can also see some turning marks around the head of some cases. I do believe that brass is better than the Bertram I have in the same cartridge. I have some Bertram 45-90 brass taht has the primer pocket lined with what appears to be stainless, I don't know. I've not loaded any of it so don't know how it will perform. Way back in the early 90's I bought some Bertram 40-82 WCF brass and had to thin the necks on every piece before they'd chamber in my 1886 Winchester. That was my "pre-lathe days" and took forever by hand.

Bertram is kinda like the two guys in the 1850's, stopped for the night in a river town on the Mississippi. One was a gambler and the other wasn't. They went into town and the gambler got into a game. His friend told him, "Bill, BILL...don't you know that game is crooked!!" Bill replies..."yeah, but it's the only game in town." Sometimes Bertram is the only game in town.

[indian joe]

indianjoe, nuclearcricket is right. I guess when he says re-form that includes re-drawing brass as well. My 40-2.5, SS brass was made BACO from 30-40 Krag brass and it isn't 2.5 in. long so it had to be re-drawn. On my 11.15 X 60R brass from 348 WCF you can see enough of the head stamp there' no mistake. You can also see some turning marks around the head of some cases. I do believe that brass is better than the Bertram I have in the same cartridge. I have some Bertram 45-90 brass taht has the primer pocket lined with what appears to be stainless, I don't know. I've not loaded any of it so don't know how it will perform. Way back in the early 90's I bought some Bertram 40-82 WCF brass and had to thin the necks on every piece before they'd chamber in my 1886 Winchester. That was my "pre-lathe days" and took forever by hand.

Bertram is kinda like the two guys in the 1850's, stopped for the night in a river town on the Mississippi. One was a gambler and the other wasn't. They went into town and the gambler got into a game. His friend told him, "Bill, BILL...don't you know that game is crooked!!" Bill replies..."yeah, but it's the only game in town." Sometimes Bertram is the only game in town.

I never used Bertram brass - have a box of (Bertram) .303 brit that I picked up cheap off a trade blanket at one of our shoots
Was looking at the measurements around the 348 / 43 mauser - all my 348 brass is 10 to 14 thou under spec ..... skinny brass - fat chamber .....maybe a bloke could get lucky and it would fit ?? -----the skinny spec 348 annoys me in the conversion to 45/75, but its tough stuff and should last ages.
Have not done a lot of case conversions (somewhere less than 2000 all up) but have had better luck neck expanding rather than coming down in size
Have done 348 to 45/75, 30/30 to 375Win, (both easy), 303 Brit to 303/25 (this was the most difficult one - junk brass maybe?), 44/40 to 38/40 (go SLOW!! once you crease a neck doing this its scrap)

[sharps4590]

Boy I don't know. I've formed and turned a lot of cases but never tried 348 to 11.15 X 60R. It would be interesting to do, I think but, with the BACO converted brass and a box of Bertram I have enough to feed the old double rifle. I did make a die to bend the rim forward on some 444 Marlin that BACO converted to 9 X 57R. The rim was too thin to headspace correctly in my drilling and primer detonation was a sometime thing. It worked but I never liked it and came across a bunch of 8 X 57R. Necking them up was a lot less trouble and the rim was both the right diameter and thickness. Primer strikes are still light but detonation is positive. I thought about getting a little Harbor Freight A or H Frame press. I could use it in my little car shop as well as handloading but I just think its use would be so rare it would be hard to justify. But...they're like a cutting torch...when that's what you need, that's all that will work.

[indian joe]

I never used Bertram brass - have a box of (Bertram) .303 brit that I picked up cheap off a trade blanket at one of our shoots
Was looking at the measurements around the 348 / 43 mauser - all my 348 brass is 10 to 14 thou under spec ..... skinny brass - fat chamber .....maybe a bloke could get lucky and it would fit ?? -----the skinny spec 348 annoys me in the conversion to 45/75, but its tough stuff and should last ages.
Have not done a lot of case conversions (somewhere less than 2000 all up) but have had better luck neck expanding rather than coming down in size
Have done 348 to 45/75, 30/30 to 375Win, (both easy), 303 Brit to 303/25 (this was the most difficult one - junk brass maybe?), 44/40 to 38/40 (go SLOW!! once you crease a neck doing this its scrap)

Aha sez he - maybe time to get our story straight!!!
just measured again - maybe misled somebody - my fired 348 brass = .547 at the base (1990's made and fired a couple times) brandy new stuff I bought in 2012 or 13 = .546
Browning 71 chamber = .555 .... so we 8 or 9 thou under chamber spec ----dunno whats sposed to be the clearance there but we need some.

My problem stems from the Uberti chamber in my 45/75 which quite happily accepts a .564 roundball -- just a smooth sliding fit - close the lever on him no problem but needs a slight push with a rod to get it out

I been lookin at wikke drawings and readin em wrong by the looks of things.

[oconeedan]

I punted. I received an email that Buffalo Arms had their (not Bertram) brass available, so I bit the bullet and bought 40. That is the most I have spent on brass, ever. But want to get this old rifle shooting.
Dan