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Thread: The age old question

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    .... our wonderful Catholic neighbors have certainly modelled the Christian faith for us without a lot of fanfare when we needed it the most.

    I know my wife and I will never pass a Catholic church again without offering a prayer of thanksgiving to the Lord.
    Good observation; some of my oldest and dearest friends are good Roman Catholics. BUT, I've never observed any significant moral difference between them and good Baptists, Methodists, etc, or even good JWs, Mormons or atheists. I mean good people are good people and no religious belief has has a lock on good people.

    I have no personal problem with others religious beliefs, I know religious errors don't disqualify anyone from the family of man. My differences are with religions doctrines, not personal, so we simply accept each other as people and respectfully go from there. In fact, and in spite of some folk's wild eyed accusations otherwise,
    I've never seen people being snotty to others because of a different belief system. But, respectfully correcting hyperbolic accusations shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.

    However, I have heard plenty of verbal snottyness between some snotty people but they are what they are and religion, as such, had little to do with it. Seems frictions follow contentious people everywhere they go! That should not be.

  2. #62
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    Why are we here?

    "By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it." 1 Peter 5:12 (E.S.V.)

    Again, why are we here? I guess there are as many different answers to that question as there are people on this earth.

    This verse has been coming to mind often over the last several months, and so, for me personally, that is my answer to the question of "why are we here?"

    To stand firm in the grace of God.

    As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

    exile
    Last edited by exile; 10-15-2020 at 04:54 PM.
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  3. #63
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm new here so I apologize if I post information that has already been well covered.

    I'm old enough for welfare and S.S., so I've been around long enough to have accumulated many life experiences and have studied religious topics of various subjects enough that I may have some thoughts worth contemplating.

    The Op asked why are we here? That age old question of "What is life all about"?

    My answer is a basic, simple one.

    Looking at the Ten Commandments in Exodus, chapter 20 we can readily see a focus that exists.
    In fact all of the Old Testament Law that continues through the next several Old Testament books continue with the same focus.
    This focus is about personal relationships and interactions between a person and God; and a person and their relationships with other people.
    What this focus reflects is that God cares about relationships.
    I've summed this up for years with this statement- God is a God of personal relationships.
    In fact as we continue reading in the New Testament, we see this focus is continued to be reflected all the way through Revelation 22- the final end of the Bible. When Jesus condensed the Old Testament law in Matt.28:38-40, he also maintained this focus.

    So, the purpose to life as understood from the Holy Bible is to live in such a way that we enjoy the life we've been given as much as possible in good relationship with God, and everyone around us.
    As we do this we automatically cause a result of honoring and a glory to God because it shows His plan to have been worthy and perfect.
    had mankind not fallen into sin this would have continued to be the way life would be for everyone.
    But since it has happened, we, and all creation are on a path that ends with God's perfect creation and plan being restored.
    In the meantime we, if we respond correctly in life, get to learn how to live well as responsible free agents, with free will, and without constantly messing up; preparing us for an eternity of peaceful life in God's New Kingdom. (Rev. 21 & 22)
    In this aspect I refer to this life as being "boot camp" for eternity for each of us.

    Having related this, there is a wrinkle.
    No matter how well we live according to God's plan for us, wretched hardship and disaster can at any time occur in our lives, and those we love; and it can be brought by other humans.
    Responding well, correctly in these times is how we learn the hard lessons of controlling ourselves as free moral agents.
    Learning to live keeping the "Big Picture" in mind is a process and takes time. Early in life I learned to keep in mind this Big Picture in this way- using the idea that we will be alive somewhere 10,000 years from now, how important is what's happening in the moment going to be at that time?
    Combining this with trying to maintain a concern for others around us, I've found that it can often put "things" into a correct perspective for me.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muser View Post
    ......
    I'm old enough for welfare and S.S., so I've been around long enough to have accumulated many life experiences and have studied religious topics of various subjects enough that I may have some thoughts worth contemplating.
    Hello Muser,
    Welcome to the Forum.
    Yes, ...with age comes wisdom, doesn't it.


    The Op asked why are we here? That age old question of "What is life all about"?

    My answer is a basic, simple one.

    Looking at the Ten Commandments in Exodus, chapter 20 we can readily see a focus that exists.
    In fact all of the Old Testament Law that continues through the next several Old Testament books continue with the same focus.
    This focus is about personal relationships and interactions between a person and God; and a person and their relationships with other people.
    Well, that sounds good but the "interaction" part suggests that there is communication, of some sort, between the person and God.
    While I have "felt" God's presence in me there is no definitive statement made to me. Prayer is a one way street also.
    I am currently re-reading the Bible again and I am in Genesis at this point.
    Lots of interaction between God and people back then. Even "appearances" of God to some back then.
    Since Jesus, there's not much going on these days.


    So, the purpose to life as understood from the Holy Bible is to live in such a way that we enjoy the life we've been given as much as possible in good relationship with God, and everyone around us.
    As we do this we automatically cause a result of honoring and a glory to God because it shows His plan to have been worthy and perfect.
    I know this sounds terrible but I do not think His plan is so perfect.
    Too many instances where people are suffering because of health, money issues, etc.
    Man's inhumanity to man, stuff like that are things that would make it hard to "enjoy the life we've been given".

    In the meantime we, if we respond correctly in life, get to learn how to live well as responsible free agents, with free will, and without constantly messing up; preparing us for an eternity of peaceful life in God's New Kingdom. (Rev. 21 & 22)
    In this aspect I refer to this life as being "boot camp" for eternity for each of us.
    Yep, if only we wouldn't mess up. A constant battle trying to avoid the pitfalls of life. <sigh>
    "Be ye perfect" seems to be an impossible feat.


    Having related this, there is a wrinkle.
    No matter how well we live according to God's plan for us, wretched hardship and disaster can at any time occur in our lives, and those we love; and it can be brought by other humans.
    Responding well, correctly in these times is how we learn the hard lessons of controlling ourselves as free moral agents.
    Learning to live keeping the "Big Picture" in mind is a process and takes time. Early in life I learned to keep in mind this Big Picture in this way- using the idea that we will be alive somewhere 10,000 years from now, how important is what's happening in the moment going to be at that time?
    Combining this with trying to maintain a concern for others around us, I've found that it can often put "things" into a correct perspective for me.
    Yes, the "Big Picture".
    Thanks for your input Muser.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  5. #65
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    So, God put us on this earth......why?

    God put us on this earth to serve Him.
    One way or another we all do serve Him.
    One way or another we all have a relationship with God.
    Peter denied Him, so you can.
    Thomas doubted, so you can.
    There were no Christians at the Last Supper.
    They were redeemed, so you can be too.
    As Paul said we are without excuse.

    This is not going to be settled on the internet.
    Here we set on our deer stands yelling across the field scaring away the deer.

    On a Wednesday night around the corner from you is a place where you can read the Word of God for yourself in fellowship and hear the truth studied. It's an education. Who is going to teach the kids if we don't? Sunday you can sing praise and hear a sermon teaching from scripture what God wants you to do.

    March 31st only the prayers of my prayer group saved me from two blood clots plugging up my lungs the big one was 20 mm, felt like I had been kicked by a horse again. Doctors practiced on me, picked them out. I should have died my heart should have exploded was a bad 24 hours. (J&J shot on the 20th? just co-incidence...) Saved for Easter, I am back to my mile a day with my wife, thank you Lord.

    My point is I was spared for the 4th time for the age old question.
    I know I am here to evangelize and apologize.
    To serve God with all my soul, all my strength, all my mind.
    Alas, this may be beyond the scope of this forum.
    I believe the load data you are looking for is in the book of John.

    I would ask you to stop berating religion made by man
    because all fall short, come join us in revival, sola scriptura,
    and renew your relationship with your Redeemer.
    Simple as that. Leave your demons and idols at the door.
    Repent
    Redeem
    Renew
    5th Great Revival in this decade!
    or we can have 70 years of bondage: 2100AD- next chance.
    nunc demittis

  6. #66
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    Rizzo, thanks for your welcome.
    Yes, I agree about gaining wisdom. I wish that our children's generation could see it and ask our advice more about things in their lives.

    Yes, I did mean personal interaction with God, as well as our relationships with others.
    Your right of course that God's method of interacting with mankind has changed since the OT days. That happened at the time of the Holy Spirit of God being sent to aid us. The Holy Spirit's ministry goes beyond ministering to us to draw us to repentance and salvation.
    I remember that powerful inner working of the Holy Spirit within my mind/heart/soul as He reached into me in such a way that I didn't want to refuse Him at the time of my salvation. It changed me forever.

    But that is just the first work in a person's life by Him.
    The Holy Spirit's ministry is two-fold. Multiple New Testament verses describe His assisting us. Here's one, John 14:26- “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
    This ministry didn't end with the death of the last Disciple, but has continued on to this day as the Holy Spirit ministers to the currently living Body of Christ.

    I try to remember to begin with praying and inviting Him to join me, and fill me, guide and teach me as I study.
    I've found that when I am taking the time and effort to seriously and honestly spend some time with God praying and/or reading and studying His Word; that God (the Holy Spirit) is there with me bringing deeper understanding to my mind and assisting me in understanding different applications of what I'm reading in both my, and others lives.

    "Prayer is a one-way street." In the sense you mean, yes at times it could seem like it, but... consider that had you begun your prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to fill you and join you; helping you to pray- would it have still been a one-way street, or at least felt that way?

    I submit to you that prayer is never actually just a one-way street, that the Holy Spirit is truly with all believer's as they pray.
    But that believer (true Christian, not in name only) can indeed totally miss the blessing of the Holy Spirit's having been involved with them if they aren't seeking, expecting His presence during that time.

    "I know this sounds terrible but I do not think His plan is so perfect. Too many instances where people are suffering because of health, money issues, etc.
    Man's inhumanity to man, stuff like that are things that would make it hard to "enjoy the life we've been given".

    Rizzo, of course your above observation is so true, on the surface of it. The burden for me of thinking about the evil of people toward their fellow humans weighs down my soul terribly. This doesn't even take into account the wrong and evil perpetrated on animals.
    You must however keep in mind that God's plan has had an attempt at sabotaging it. (This is not to excuse the fault of sin being brought into existence by humankind.)
    God's plan hasn't ended yet though.
    In fact it will continue beyond the end of Revelation chapter 22. That's only just how far He has chosen to reveal His plans to us for now.

    And does the horrific pain and suffering in the Earth happen with no effect on God's heart?
    Think about it, God is the source of all love. Evil of every sort and atrociousness hurts God's heart more than it can ever hurt ours.
    We can't begin to fathom the depths of pain He endures!
    If there had been a way to avoid all of this, you know deep down that He would have.
    You only have existing automatons if they have no free will and the ability to exercise it.
    There will be a recourse, with full accountability.
    Consider, can a God of Love not also be a God of Justice? He is a just God. The First Judgment is all about God's justice for every wrong and evil done to man and beast. This includes what we do to ourselves and how we hurt ourselves.

    So by His perfect plan I meant that God gets what He wanted, no sabotage will prevent it.
    A race of "agents of free will" was created, and many will be perfected with the ability to live eternally unfettered in the exercise of their free will.
    As I said, to the honor and glory of our All-Loving God.

  7. #67
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    Rizzo, I read that you are "on a spiritual journey" in a sense that seems parallel to those of us here who are Christians.
    At my age I've lived as a close friend with a fellow workmate as a friend who was an atheist when we met forty-some years ago.
    Over the years he would come to me with question after question, sometimes irate and angry. We weren't friends yet and he was trying to punch holes in my beliefs, thinking I was brain-washed. He had read books of eastern religions, yogis, and masters searching for truth.

    Today he is a Christian, not because of me but because he was willing to accept Truth as it was shown to him. Letting go of small "truths" was key to his seeing what is actual reality.

    I'll be happy to share what I know about reincarnation with you, but realize that if your heart isn't truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you.

    We all come to the search from somewhere. Do you know yet that the Holy Bible is the most accurate book of history known to have been written?
    So purely from a secular position you are doing well to read it. But to get out of it what it contains in-depth you must be a Christian with the Holy Spirit assisting you. (as I stated above)
    Last edited by Muser; 04-23-2021 at 03:17 AM.

  8. #68
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    Rizzo, to get to the Truth that you are saying you are after; you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity, and whichever one you profess that includes reincarnation.
    All religions contain some "truths and correct principles". But those universal to them that men can think of isn't what you are needing to be seeking.
    Reincarnation has a basic flaw that makes it incomparable to the Truth of the Bible. I'll get into that for you if you'd like.
    In fact you'll find that the Bible directly stands in opposition to the religions that are reincarnation-based.
    Yes, I know of what you've previously briefly brought up about children and memories.

    Hebrews 9:27- "Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.…"
    For now you need to set this aside so you can in an honest way approach your search.

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
    Are you such a man?

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    My opinion, the earth is a sorting bin. People are free to choose their path. Making it quite easy to seperate the sheep from the goats. The Wheat from the Chaff.

    We are given a life, what we do with it is up to us. Our choices are going to define who we will be in the end.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.

    Anyone that wants to use this, feel free. Spread it wide and far.

  10. #70
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    We are but sojourners on this earth, which is just a way station on the way to eternity. This way station is where we exercise our power to choose and hopefully make choices that fit us for eternity. Eternity is for people who chose God and learn to make Godly choices and engage in Godly activities. It is both a learning time and a testing time.

    While we are one this sojourn, Jesus is Savior (one who made atonement for our sins), Teacher and example. The great message of the New Testament is not Jesus is like God, but God is like Jesus.

    This is not a great mystery. It is clear to one who reads the entire Bible with an eye to the entire sweep of thought. It is very consistent. Folks tend to get bogged down in "proof texting", trying to pit one verse against another. Looking for a verse or verses that undergird their own religious dogma. Various church dogma are a bigger enemy of the Kingdom that Satan. Satan loves to pit dogma against dogma, as that take peoples eye on the ball. Get the churches bogged down in fights over dogma and the Gospel become neutered. They would rather fight with other Christians over jots and tittles than tell the world about Jesus.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 04-23-2021 at 01:40 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #71
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    Muser,
    I appreciate all that you have addressed to me.
    We both believe in God but have some differences in our Spiritual beliefs.

    I am quite comfortable with what I believe, which includes the teachings of Jesus and also the belief of reincarnation.
    You have apparently read some of my other posts on other issues so you have some idea where I am coming from.

    ...consider that had you begun your prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to fill you and join you; helping you to pray- would it have still been a one-way street, or at least felt that way?
    Well, in my experience, yes.

    "I submit to you that prayer is never actually just a one-way street, that the Holy Spirit is truly with all believer's as they pray.
    But that believer (true Christian, not in name only) can indeed totally miss the blessing of the Holy Spirit's having been involved with them if they aren't seeking, expecting His presence during that time."
    I have felt what I believe to be the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was overwhelming in a good way.
    However, that does not equate to prayers being answered.
    I guess you could say that there is some interaction there because of the Presence, but it isn't necesssarily an answer to a prayer, hence the "one way street" issue still remains.

    "I'll be happy to share what I know about reincarnation with you, but realize that if your heart isn't truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you."
    Like some others have stated before, here we are again with advice to me to give up what I believe and believe what you believe. Then I will find Truth.
    <sigh>
    Thank you for your concern, but as stated before, I am quite comfortable with what I believe.

    "....you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity"
    I do not understand this.
    "...two entire beliefs systems of Christianity"
    Please explain.

    "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
    Are you such a man?"
    So,....I've been "knockin' on heaven's door" trying to get answers to my prayers but no one answered the door.
    Yes I am such a man.......still waiting.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Rizzo....I don't know what you believe about God and or Jesus and really am not asking you to tell me. We all get to live and die with our beliefs which is our God given choice. I do not believe in reincarnation, but it is not a heaven vs. hell issue, so it doesn't bother me if you do.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Rizzo....I don't know what you believe about God and or Jesus and really am not asking you to tell me.
    Why mention that if you are not asking?
    So to answer your non-question.....

    God is the Creator of all things.
    Side note:
    I am baffled by Atheist's thinking.
    How can one look around at this beautiful earth with all of it's complexities and not see Intelligent design? (rhetorical)

    What is His plan, why are we here, why can't we have one on one communication with Him, since He is our Father?
    I do not know those answers.
    Yet, I can feel His love, despite all of these things.

    We have an Owner's Manual of sorts with religious texts (Bible for instance) that gives advice and direction for good living. Yet, in those texts we (I) find confusion and things that do not seem to be true.

    Regarding Jesus,...He is the Son of God. He is considered God despite His actions in the Bible where He refers to God as His father, and acts separate from being God in some of His dialog. Yet, Father, Son, Holy Spirit are considered as the one God.

    ...... I do not believe in reincarnation, but it is not a heaven vs. hell issue, so it doesn't bother me if you do.
    Actually it is, sort of.
    Reincarnation pretty much does away with eternal damnation in hell.
    Like I've said before:
    No one goes to Hell for eternity.

    I know this bothers folks when I say this because it goes against their beliefs.
    But it happens to be what I believe, so it doesn't bother me if you do not.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  14. #74
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    Rizzo,

    I'm always interested in non-emotional mature, rational discussion of any topic. My goal in this is not to "win", but simply to offer somethings you may want to give time considering, and at the same time to hear your thoughts.

    I have felt what I believe to be the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was overwhelming in a good way.
    - This concerns me because my entire life experience has been that God is not one to overwhelm a person. Even at a time as a teenager when God in answer to my heartbroken prayer gave me a gift of healing for my younger brother, it was a calm, inwardly quiet experience in my soul as I received it from the Holy Spirit.

    Like some others have stated before, here we are again with advice to me to give up what I believe and believe what you believe. Then I will find Truth.
    - Rizzo, you need to slow up your reading and be certain you are accurate. This is not what I wrote. Go back and you will see, if you want. This is what I wrote- ["truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you." ] I'm referring to your(anyone's) heart's attitude here, desiring to know what is real Truth. Not that we must already have given up our belief before we can understand something new, never that.
    The Chinese have a saying about the need to be willing to empty one's cup if one desires to learn anew.

    "....you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity"
    I do not understand this.
    "...two entire beliefs systems of Christianity"
    Please explain.
    - Sure, Understand that sentence as one whole thought. (...of Christianity and whatever "overall belief system" you have that includes reincarnation.) My comma may have thrown you.

    BTW Rizzo, I don't think I've read your posts other than in this thread.
    Do you consider yourself a Christian, or someone who believes in a "Supreme God" ?
    - Your words please.

    I don't want to further de-rail this thread, maybe I'll start a new one- Can Reincarnation Exist Within Christian Theology?. We, and others can pick this up there.
    Last edited by Muser; 04-26-2021 at 11:11 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muser View Post
    Rizzo,

    I'm always interested in non-emotional mature, rational discussion of any topic. My goal in this is not to "win", but simply to offer somethings you may want to give time considering, and at the same time to hear your thoughts.
    Sounds good to me.
    I enjoy reading other's views on things.
    They can give food for thought and discussion.

    - This concerns me because my entire life experience has been that God is not one to overwhelm a person. Even at a time as a teenager when God in answer to my heartbroken prayer gave me a gift of healing for my younger brother, it was a calm, inwardly quiet experience in my soul as I received it from the Holy Spirit.
    You are replying to my statement about being overwhelmed here. Rather than rewriting it I will quote what I wrote in Post #23:
    "I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
    I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
    I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

    I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
    It's an amazing feeling."


    - Rizzo, you need to slow up your reading and be certain you are accurate. This is not what I wrote. Go back and you will see, if you want. This is what I wrote- ["truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you." ] I'm referring to your(anyone's) heart's attitude here, desiring to know what is real Truth. Not that we must already have given up our belief before we can understand something new, never that.
    The Chinese have a saying about the need to be willing to empty one's cup if one desires to learn anew.
    Fair enough Muser.
    I guess I am a little "touchy" on members here advising me to give up my beliefs (that they do not agree with) and go with what they believe. It has happened here before.

    Real Truth?,..............who's Truth?
    Yours, mine, the Jews, The Hindus, the Muslims, the Christians...................?
    Each believes in a Creator and below that all sorts of dialog on how to interact with Him, live right, etc.

    Depending on which "culture" you are raised in will probably determine what your Spiritual beliefs are.
    Those with "Other" belief systems (other than Christian) feel that they have some sort of relationship with their Creator.
    No?
    Then to approach them with a different belief system and state that it is the real Truth because it comes from....say the Bible,.....well, you get the idea.

    Do you consider yourself a Christian, or someone who believes in a "Supreme God" ?
    - Your words please.
    I have already stated that I believe in God.
    I consider myself a "Hybrid Christian".
    One who tries to live according to the teachings of Jesus and who also believes in reincarnation.

    I don't want to further de-rail this thread, maybe I'll start a new one- Can Reincarnation Exist Within Christian Theology?. We, and others can pick this up there.
    Sounds like a good topic for discussion.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  16. #76
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Rizzo;5175659]Why mention that if you are not asking?
    So to answer your non-question....."

    I mentioned it because I really don't care what you believe. I meant what I said in a very literal sense. I am not into indirect speech of any kind. I grew very tired of random theological discussions with random people about 1975. A very wise man, once told me, "Always remember, theology is not God, it is just people talking about God.".
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  17. #77
    Boolit Master

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    Why would the perfect being make such an imperfect thing as mankind?

    Why would a creature of infinite power, wisdom, and ability to deliver by miracle make puny, stupid men to work his will, not tell them what that will is, and generally let them make the exact same mistakes cyclically for generations?

    Why would this being create us with the primal survival drives that can make us seem like monsters, then give us a code that tells us to set them aside?

    Why have faith that the next world is so great when the first one is such a train wreck?

    What kind of "plan" is it when we aren't plainly told and can't reach any consensus over what it is?

    I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods, but if I'm wrong on that, I feel pretty certain they/he isn't the benevolent nice guy that many are so wishful for. Thus, as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I've never had much use for one."
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Why would the perfect being make such an imperfect thing as mankind?

    Why would a creature of infinite power, wisdom, and ability to deliver by miracle make puny, stupid men to work his will, not tell them what that will is, and generally let them make the exact same mistakes cyclically for generations?

    Why would this being create us with the primal survival drives that can make us seem like monsters, then give us a code that tells us to set them aside?

    Why have faith that the next world is so great when the first one is such a train wreck?

    What kind of "plan" is it when we aren't plainly told and can't reach any consensus over what it is?
    Good questions.
    I ponder those same questions, along with "Why are we here?".
    We seem to be left in the dark for answers regarding those questions.

    I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods, but if I'm wrong on that, I feel pretty certain they/he isn't the benevolent nice guy that many are so wishful for. Thus, as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I've never had much use for one."
    You say gods (plural).
    I do believe in the only God (God The Creator), but those valid questions do not change my belief in Him.
    It is more of trying to have an understanding of why He put us in this situation that is so confusing when we ponder those questions.
    It bugs me that we are left in the dark about these matters.

    You can look in the Bible for those answers and won't find them.
    God loves you and we are to live a good life by following His commandments and to serve Him is what you'll find regarding those questions.
    God knows what is best for you, so just have FAITH ( a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.)
    Uh-huh, uh-huh...., <sigh> So here we are in this beautiful creation of His without a clue as to....why are we here, etc..
    1A - 2A = -1A

  19. #79
    Boolit Mold
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    Bigslug, you asked "Why".
    God wanted, for His own reasons to have in existence within His creation a race that not only had the ability of free will, but also the right to exercise it.
    The angels already existed and had the ability of free will; but from what we know, apparently did not have the right to exercise it freely.

    You seem to have missed the meaning of the first part of the book of Genesis.
    God created mankind absolutely perfect in every way, sinless.
    On our own we chose to accept the temptation to sin against God, and ourselves.
    God in His love for His creation of humankind put into effect His perfect plan of redeeming (saving from sin) mankind, who is unable to save ourselves.

    - Enter the law of Moses -

    How about the Law that God gave the Israelite's to live by?
    Not just the Ten Commandments but also the Books of Law: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
    They contain a lot of solid health, and life guidance that is excellent. But its nigh on impossible to live one's life without ever breaking some of them. Its impossible to live life and never break one of the Ten Commandments, let alone ALL of the Law.
    Its an impossible mandate.

    And then in James 2:10 it says: "For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all."

    Is the Hebrew God sadistic and evil?
    May it never be!

    So what's the point? Ultimately it will be for sinless people to live for all eternity here on a newly created earth with fellow Christians, God, and Jesus Christ, other peoples and kings, and who knows what all! (read in the last book of the Bible- Revelation, the last two chapters in it, chapters 21 and 22. It will be utterly amazing!!

    Back to the purpose of the Law- First, it has its obvious values for guidance in life. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly the Law shows humankind that we need help to live righteously, sinless. Which is the only way to at some point be able to live and be around God who is perfectly, purely Holy.
    The overall purpose God gave man the Law is to show us our absolute need for a savior.
    *** Its a perfect example of how it is impossible for us to earn our way to Heaven in our own efforts. ***
    - And therein shows the need for, and points to the coming promised Messiah.


    Rizzo, this is ultimately the reason that reincarnation simply cannot coexist as a held belief within Christianity.

    Its a thought out system for people to get beyond their sin. But its in actuality an impossibility to accomplish this on our own.
    Which is why God had to step in, put into place His plan of salvation, which He had from before creating humanity.

    Reincarnation was developed by people who had no idea of God's plan for redemption of humankind. It was the best that could be thought of, maybe. But simply just not good enough.
    Its not possible for it to work.
    If it could work, there would have been no need for God to take on human flesh and suffer the horrendous torture of crucifixion as a sinless, perfectly pure sacrifice to pay for our debt to Justice for our sins and unrighteousness.

    God is a God of Justice. Its impossible for it to be otherwise. Because God is pure Holy Love, that love demands justice.
    Hence the Judgment Day that absolutely will happen.

    There simply is no "Yea but..."; it is God's plan for mankind as revealed in His Holy Word to us, we get to accept it for the beauty and love found reflected in it or we don't accept it and suffer the consequences of that choice.

    But remember that God having created mankind with the ability to recognize the need for a Creator, had the absolute incumbent responsibility to reveal Himself to man.
    Compare if you will, all other belief systems about God that exists. They will contain some truths.

    See if there be any that matches or excels the revealed explanation of reality, the plan for mankind as we live our lives, and the wondrous future that is described in Revelation 21 and 22.

    No other belief system encompasses as well as what we understand of reality through the Old and New Testament.

    By way of example- No other belief system has power over evil that matches the Creator of all that exists - Jesus Christ (as the Word before he took on humanity at his birth) read John 1:1- 3~ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Shamans have to summon a more powerful demon spirit to control the one already troubling someone.
    But then there now is that bigger problem that must be kept appeased. The situation is not ultimately made better, but worse.
    Last edited by Muser; 04-30-2021 at 11:25 AM.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    So, God put us on this earth......why?

    God put us on this earth to serve Him.
    One way or another we all do serve Him.
    One way or another we all have a relationship with God.
    Peter denied Him, so you can.
    Thomas doubted, so you can.

    Thought provoking observations.


    There IS a spirit power at work in the earthly affairs of individuals and kingdoms (countries). There are only two spiritual powers at work here and all men WILL decide to serve one or the other. Those who loudly proclaim they have not and will not make such a decision have indeed made a conscious decision to follow the wrong leader.

    Jesus was perfect in every way; we aren't perfect in any way. Jesus paid the penalty for our failures and offers us a "free" ticket to heaven IF we want it but He won't jam it down resisting throats.

    God has done his part; trust whom you will, we each choose who will be Lord of our lives, now and forever. Choose well, in our world the eternal ends of both choices are well known and certain. (John 3:17-18)

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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GC Gas Check