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Thread: The age old question

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Rizzo, believe me, I make no insinuations. I state my beliefs, reasons and questions as clearly and briefly as I can and without guile. My questions may be penetrating, especially when I see illogical contradictions in other people's statements, but they shouldn't be taken as insults to anyone.

    I asked my questions in attempt to better understand WHY & HOW you came to believe as you do; I still don't know.

    Your recounting of how long reincarnation has been taught doesn't matter and is NOT what I asked. Point of fact, I probably understand why the foolishness of karma and reincarnation came to be more clearly than you but that isn't the question; why YOU believe it to be true and what foundation you choose to stand on is! Nor do I yet have a clue how you came to emphatically state - as a presumed fact - that there is no eternal hell. ??

    If you find any of that insulting I'm sorry because it's not my purpose in asking.

  2. #22
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    Psalm 107:23 KJV They that go down to the sea in ships...
    Why are we here?
    To haul geezers to doctors, labs, haircuts, dentists.
    You should too. Who is going to drive you in your turn?
    We sit waiting in our masks. I have KJV on my ebook, turned to Psalms. Read Psalms. Aloud. Into your mask. Your blood pressure goes down. Worry goes away. It stops hurting. Time goes away. The waiting room leans in to hear. Nobody, nobody at all has complained, not in a waiting room. This is why David wrote prayers to sing. David was serving God. For our ease.
    I would like to know why reading Psalms aloud eases pain, certainly lowers blood pressure, been doing a discrete survey, before and after, seems the distraction, concentration takes us away from pain.
    Or is it the indwelling?
    I am sorry if you reject this joy.
    It's your choice.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Apologies, the concept of reincarnation isn’t an element of Catholicism and so I made the assumption that I did. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and was an altar boy...I’m quite certain that while it made my family happy it doesn’t mean squat in terms of salvation. My Sicilian grandmother wanted me to be a priest, she figured my mother had 5 sons so one needed to be given to God’s service, but it wasn’t my path.

    To answer your question, I don’t know why we are here, but we are and I feel pretty good about knowing what things I should be doing while we’re here. I often fail to do them, and do other things that I shouldn’t, but I’ve accepted salvation and the rest matters little.

    I am curious about your belief in reincarnation. Personally I don’t see the point in it, but I can’t say that we aren’t cycling through physical forms until the rapture and then we all go to judgement together. If that’s what’s going on, and nobody knows it and you never remember it, then why not be happy to go along for the ride? You don’t know that it’s happening, and you can’t change it if it is.
    Good questions and I am happy to answer them.

    The condensed version is that when I was in my early twenties I wasn't sure what I believed.
    The Catholic/Christian faith was a good foundation but I just did not "feel" my connection with God, so I strayed away.
    I was listening to a talk show from San Francisco called Mind Space, with Jeff Mischlov (sp?) and he had a guest Dr. Ralph Monroe who had just wrote a book titled Journeys Out of the Body, in which he described the experiences he was having.
    This fascinated me and I read the book and wanted to experience that very thing.
    This led to more books on the subject, with similar fascinating stories and I was discussing them with a friend at work and the next day he brought in a book of his girlfriend's. He said, "You should check this out, it's right up your alley."
    (God works in mysterious ways)
    The book was Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda.

    Now, I had read about the Yogis of India and some of their "abilities" from practicing deep meditation techniques. Some could levitate, go out their bodies, materialize things, healings, etc.
    So, I read the book and my whole life changed.

    Out of body experiences, levitating, etc....which I wanted to do, got thrown by the wayside.
    It was all about one's Spirituality, so it became a spiritual quest.
    I learned that one could achieve Self Realization and KNOW God by meditation.
    Self Realization meaning is to know that your True Self is Spirit/Soul and NOT this physical body.
    To actually experience your Spiritual Self and Oneness with God, through meditation.
    It also explained Karma and Reincarnation and how they worked.

    Reincarnation made sense to me.
    On a side note, there are many, many documented cases of people (mostly children) having recollections of a past lives.
    Some Christians would say "It's the work of the Devil!!!.
    I think not. There is something going on there.

    We all get back home with God....eventually. We can take the oxcart to get there, or by deep meditation, one could take the jet plane back home instead.

    I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
    I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
    I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

    I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
    It's an amazing feeling.

    So, since then, God has been more in my life.
    I still get a feeling in my heart area that is sometimes overwhelming and puts tears to my eyes.
    It is the Love of God and Him calling me back home is how I would describe it.

    While there are Hinduism overtones in my beliefs because of my belief in reincarnation, that is about as far as it goes with me. The teachings of Jesus play a big role in my life today as well.

    There you have it.
    I hope that answered your questions.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Rizzo, believe me, I make no insinuations. I state my beliefs, reasons and questions as clearly and briefly as I can and without guile. My questions may be penetrating, especially when I see illogical contradictions in other people's statements, but they shouldn't be taken as insults to anyone.

    I asked my questions in attempt to better understand WHY & HOW you came to believe as you do; I still don't know.

    Your recounting of how long reincarnation has been taught doesn't matter and is NOT what I asked. Point of fact, I probably understand why the foolishness of karma and reincarnation came to be more clearly than you but that isn't the question; why YOU believe it to be true and what foundation you choose to stand on is! Nor do I yet have a clue how you came to emphatically state - as a presumed fact - that there is no eternal hell. ??

    If you find any of that insulting I'm sorry because it's not my purpose in asking.
    Well, I will get to your questions in a bit but lets start off with why you have said that I deny God.
    Why do you say that?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    Psalm 107:23 KJV They that go down to the sea in ships...
    Why are we here?
    To haul geezers to doctors, labs, haircuts, dentists.
    You should too. Who is going to drive you in your turn?
    We sit waiting in our masks. I have KJV on my ebook, turned to Psalms. Read Psalms. Aloud. Into your mask. Your blood pressure goes down. Worry goes away. It stops hurting. Time goes away. The waiting room leans in to hear. Nobody, nobody at all has complained, not in a waiting room. This is why David wrote prayers to sing. David was serving God. For our ease.
    I would like to know why reading Psalms aloud eases pain, certainly lowers blood pressure, been doing a discrete survey, before and after, seems the distraction, concentration takes us away from pain.
    Or is it the indwelling?
    I am sorry if you reject this joy.
    It's your choice.
    Reject your Joy?
    No, I do not reject your joy.

    Can't argue with your success!

    But, to be honest, I might find it annoying while sitting patiently waiting for my appt. to have to listen someone reading the Bible aloud in that room.
    Kinda rude, really.
    Why does it have to be "Aloud"?
    Read to yourself is more of a polite way, wouldn't you say?

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Good questions and I am happy to answer them.

    The condensed version is that when I was in my early twenties I wasn't sure what I believed.
    The Catholic/Christian faith was a good foundation but I just did not "feel" my connection with God, so I strayed away.
    I was listening to a talk show from San Francisco called Mind Space, with Jeff Mischlov (sp?) and he had a guest Dr. Ralph Monroe who had just wrote a book titled Journeys Out of the Body, in which he described the experiences he was having.
    This fascinated me and I read the book and wanted to experience that very thing.
    This led to more books on the subject, with similar fascinating stories and I was discussing them with a friend at work and the next day he brought in a book of his girlfriend's. He said, "You should check this out, it's right up your alley."
    (God works in mysterious ways)
    The book was Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda.

    Now, I had read about the Yogis of India and some of their "abilities" from practicing deep meditation techniques. Some could levitate, go out their bodies, materialize things, healings, etc.
    So, I read the book and my whole life changed.

    Out of body experiences, levitating, etc....which I wanted to do, got thrown by the wayside.
    It was all about one's Spirituality, so it became a spiritual quest.
    I learned that one could achieve Self Realization and KNOW God by meditation.
    Self Realization meaning is to know that your True Self is Spirit/Soul and NOT this physical body.
    To actually experience your Spiritual Self and Oneness with God, through meditation.
    It also explained Karma and Reincarnation and how they worked.

    Reincarnation made sense to me.
    On a side note, there are many, many documented cases of people (mostly children) having recollections of a past lives.
    Some Christians would say "It's the work of the Devil!!!.
    I think not. There is something going on there.

    We all get back home with God....eventually. We can take the oxcart to get there, or by deep meditation, one could take the jet plane back home instead.

    I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
    I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
    I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

    I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
    It's an amazing feeling.

    So, since then, God has been more in my life.
    I still get a feeling in my heart area that is sometimes overwhelming and puts tears to my eyes.
    It is the Love of God and Him calling me back home is how I would describe it.

    While there are Hinduism overtones in my beliefs because of my belief in reincarnation, that is about as far as it goes with me. The teachings of Jesus play a big role in my life today as well.

    There you have it.
    I hope that answered your questions.
    Thank you.

    Many people see God in the weather, in a baby, in a forest, a flower, a hummingbird or a bumble bee. I believe it is the nature of God to be in all things, and that you find him in yourself is a blessing not enjoyed by most.

    You seem to be struggling with an apparent conflict between your understanding of what God is saying to you and something you believe. Have you considered that God is indeed saying that he wants you to be with him, but your fear of reincarnation is standing in the way of his message about how to come home? I can’t imagine the fear you’re facing, the difficult path you’ve walked over many decades, the hard won insight, and in a moment you may come back as a newborn knowing nothing of it and only hoping to do better next time.

    What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?

    You didn’t come to your beliefs carelessly, but undertake this investigation with the same prayerful rigor and inquisitive mind and I’m sure that it will further enlighten you.

    This conversation is terribly uncomfortable for me, I am often not on the right path and I generally doubt that I can be of much assistance to anyone in finding their salvation. I am nonetheless confident in my salvation and I live the life I live not in hopes of earning salvation, but to celebrate that it has been given to me. I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    .... I am nonetheless confident in my salvation ....
    What makes you so confident?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Rizzo
    You might be annoyed hearing my wife and me swapping Psalms? We aren't noisy loud. Quieter than a deaf geezer on a cellphone. I am amazed nobody has complained, usually the crowd wants more. These are broken lonely old people. My wife and I did 71 trips to the Tucson Orthopedic Institute in two years, finally got her hips installed after we fixed her feet. Busy nursies keep taking her blood pressure, that's how I discovered Psalms are better than pills.
    Psalm 6 KJV is a perennial favorite at TOI:

    Don't Rebuke Me in Your Anger

    1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

    2Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

    3My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?

    4Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

    5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    6I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.

    7Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.

    8Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

    9The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.

    10Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

    One old lady recited the 23rd as we were leaving.
    That's a good one for a surgery waiting room.

    Are there people who do not want me to be a Christian? Ayuh.
    As Rhett Butler said "The dogs bark, and the caravan passes on."
    Repent
    Revive
    Redeem
    and maybe we might save America. It's what we are here for.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    wow sorry. that was way too evangelical
    I am ticked off that the State can close a church.
    Isolate all these old people. Starve them.
    try this out:
    I would not shoot your reloads
    and you would not shoot mine.
    A load for my Ruger SBH might be hot
    300 gr & compressed H110? No!
    What works for me
    might not work for you.
    That's why God gave us
    Reloads For Your Soul Vol 1&2
    Ignore it at your own risk.
    "Did God really say...?"
    Only lie the deceiver has, and it still works.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    What makes you so confident?

    Tim
    My faith.

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold
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    Why are we here?

    To experience life.

    Nothing more, nothing less. The world would be pretty boring if we were all good and only did those things necessary to live.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Thank you.

    Many people see God in the weather, in a baby, in a forest, a flower, a hummingbird or a bumble bee. I believe it is the nature of God to be in all things, and that you find him in yourself is a blessing not enjoyed by most.

    You seem to be struggling with an apparent conflict between your understanding of what God is saying to you and something you believe. Have you considered that God is indeed saying that he wants you to be with him, but your fear of reincarnation is standing in the way of his message about how to come home? I can’t imagine the fear you’re facing, the difficult path you’ve walked over many decades, the hard won insight, and in a moment you may come back as a newborn knowing nothing of it and only hoping to do better next time.

    What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?

    You didn’t come to your beliefs carelessly, but undertake this investigation with the same prayerful rigor and inquisitive mind and I’m sure that it will further enlighten you.

    This conversation is terribly uncomfortable for me, I am often not on the right path and I generally doubt that I can be of much assistance to anyone in finding their salvation. I am nonetheless confident in my salvation and I live the life I live not in hopes of earning salvation, but to celebrate that it has been given to me. I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.
    I do not understand how you drew those conclusions from what I posted.

    Struggles?
    No, no struggles. I do not see what I said that would suggest that.
    Fear of reincarnation?
    The fear I am facing?
    Please explain where you see that in my post.
    They are hardly the case.

    The new found spirituality I described in my youth is very much here now with me today.
    It is wonderful.
    I am fully comfortable with my beliefs.

    What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?
    Ahh-h! Now the "whitnessing" begins.
    You are asking me to put aside my beliefs and come to yours.
    You see my beliefs as wrong, I assume.
    You are doing your Christian duty to be "a fisher of men".
    Uh-huh.

    Trappings of the Catholic Church?
    ....and those would be?
    The Bible is indeed the core of what Catholics believe.
    Do you believe Catholics are Christian?

    Do your beliefs feel threatened when you read things like what I posted?
    Reincarnation seems to be an issue that most Christians raise their eyebrows at and get upset about.
    Does it conflict with your beliefs? If so, how?

    I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.
    Well, thank you for that. I have found peace and spirituality in my beliefs.
    I hope you have too.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    Rizzo
    ...You might be annoyed hearing my wife and me swapping Psalms?
    No, I did not say that.
    Please re-read my reply to you.
    What I said was:
    "But, to be honest, I might find it annoying while sitting patiently waiting for my appt. to have to listen someone reading the Bible aloud in that room."

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Well, I will get to your questions in a bit but lets start off with why you have said that I deny God.
    Why do you say that?
    I said it based on what you've said.

    But, I speak as a Christian who finds deep spiritual rest with the God of the Holy Bible. It's He whom you deny; all others are smooth Satanic deceptions, i.e., antichrists.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    I do not understand how you drew those conclusions from what I posted.

    Struggles?
    No, no struggles. I do not see what I said that would suggest that.
    Fear of reincarnation?
    The fear I am facing?
    Please explain where you see that in my post.
    They are hardly the case.

    The new found spirituality I described in my youth is very much here now with me today.
    It is wonderful.
    I am fully comfortable with my beliefs.



    Ahh-h! Now the "whitnessing" begins.
    You are asking me to put aside my beliefs and come to yours.
    You see my beliefs as wrong, I assume.
    You are doing your Christian duty to be "a fisher of men".
    Uh-huh.

    Trappings of the Catholic Church?
    ....and those would be?
    The Bible is indeed the core of what Catholics believe.
    Do you believe Catholics are Christian?

    Do your beliefs feel threatened when you read things like what I posted?
    Reincarnation seems to be an issue that most Christians raise their eyebrows at and get upset about.
    Does it conflict with your beliefs? If so, how?



    Well, thank you for that. I have found peace and spirituality in my beliefs.
    I hope you have too.
    LOL, like I said, I’m the last one to witness, and it’s not my job to convince you to abandon your beliefs and adopt mine. As for your struggle, if you don’t see it then I’m not sure you understand yourself as well as you think you do.

    I do sincerely wish you the best.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I won't tell anyone what to believe or not to believe.

    I wasted 40 years being the goat that would not be led, did not want a shepherd, good or otherwise.

    Did not want green pastures, prefered the rocky steeps. Did not much care for still water, liked water that moved, trickled and flowed.

    But eventually I began to see looking back all the places where my Lord carried me, protected me, sheltered me.
    And eventually he called in a way that I heard.

    For the last 6 years I have been his, been working at being more loving, forgiving. Less angry, yelling.
    Still not perfect, doubt I ever will be. But I am making progress.

    And once in a while I am able to help someone. Or tell a story of my past that may help someone though a rough patch.

    I think the Lord works his mysterious ways mostly through people. And if I can lend a hand now and then. Well, that is good enough for me.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    I won't tell anyone what to believe or not to believe.

    I wasted 40 years being the goat that would not be led, did not want a shepherd, good or otherwise.

    Did not want green pastures, prefered the rocky steeps. Did not much care for still water, liked water that moved, trickled and flowed.

    But eventually I began to see looking back all the places where my Lord carried me, protected me, sheltered me.
    And eventually he called in a way that I heard.

    For the last 6 years I have been his, been working at being more loving, forgiving. Less angry, yelling.
    Still not perfect, doubt I ever will be. But I am making progress.

    And once in a while I am able to help someone. Or tell a story of my past that may help someone though a rough patch.

    I think the Lord works his mysterious ways mostly through people. And if I can lend a hand now and then. Well, that is good enough for me.
    This is good and right. I have always been happier and had a better life when I was helping others. I think God's mysterious ways are not so mysterious. It seems if you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you will be a happier soul.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    My faith.
    What gave you that faith, where did it come from? I know that everything comes from God but how did God instill you with faith in the Bible?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    What gave you that faith, where did it come from? I know that everything comes from God but how did God instill you with faith in the Bible?

    Tim
    It’s a hard question, and while I’ve been drafting responses for over an hour I can’t find the words to form a coherent reply. It’s the sort of thing that I think requires a conversation, not an internet post.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    It’s a hard question, and while I’ve been drafting responses for over an hour I can’t find the words to form a coherent reply. It’s the sort of thing that I think requires a conversation, not an internet post.
    I am fine with you giving it a rest. We have been having a conversation here but the written word is so concrete and the spoken word can be nebulous. It is clear God gave you faith in the bible, maybe even through the intercession of the Holy Spirit. God maybe saw that you needed that. Of course you thank God, I am sure. Do you know how lucky you are to have faith to not have doubts?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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