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Thread: The age old question

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muser View Post
    Reincarnation was developed by people who had no idea of God's plan for redemption of humankind.
    There are a few recurring things about reincarnation that I find a bit amusing. One of the biggest chuckles is that those who profess to have memories of a past life were always bigtime players! I've heard of no one who was a simple hard working clod just trying to stay alive as best he could. Seems only big shots get reincarnated ... or it's all B.S.!

    I do believe some demon possessed people have memories that come from a prior life but I don't for a moment think it's a human memory, as such. Instead, I believe reincarnation memories are demonic spirit recollections of previously indwelt humans; that's sad for the poor lost souls.

  2. #82
    Boolit Bub
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    Well said 1hole.

    That's what our situation boils down to, for a bottom line.
    The different thoughts that a number of us are sharing all fit together.

    GhostHawk -
    My opinion, the earth is a sorting bin. People are free to choose their path. Making it quite easy to seperate the sheep from the goats. The Wheat from the Chaff.

    We are given a life, what we do with it is up to us. Our choices are going to define who we will be in the end.
    GhostHawk, I also use the example that this life is very much like boot camp training. In this life we are being trained and prepared for our life and service in our future - Revelation 21-22.
    Last edited by Muser; 04-30-2021 at 12:21 PM.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master
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    As a study in comparative religion, my family hosted several Hindu grad students, found them an apartment, taught them to shop and cook, and drive on the right.
    We agreed they wouldn't be evangelical Baptists (yet)
    and I would make a very poor Hindu.
    They enjoyed Christmas in my church, candlelit,
    and I was baffled in their Temple.
    A Hindu wedding is amazing.

    Hindu is a cycle and they want to escape it.
    Christianity is linear: God started Creation, and He will surely end it.
    (Scientism teaches Big Bang Big Crunch and denies God)

    If by reincarnation you mean I will have a glorified body one day
    with God's name on my headband, by the River, hasten the Day!
    If you mean I have to come back as a dog until I get it right,
    escape my karma, that's just not in the KJV.

    The stumbling block is when the Holy Spirit changes you, you are changed.
    Many today will not repent and let that happen.
    And so we sign up for 70 years of bondage starting 2030.
    God loves us, and yet hates sin.
    The first sin that causes the others is covetousness:
    we want what we can't have;
    I would be happy if only I had...

    Where's your joy?

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    People go to hell because they reject Jesus as Lord, not because they aren't good enough; none of us are that good.

    I don't consider the coming resurrection of ALL human dead is any kind of reincarnation. Reincarnation is coming back in a new body - man or beast - that never existed before and is devoid of any memory of the previous life. In reincarnation there can be no learning of why we exist or what we did wrong previously!

    Resurrection is of our own body and with very significant memories of our past life. Without our memories we would be just another animated pile of dirt and dust. We wouldn't know our loved ones or even who that nice "Jesus guy" we keep seeing around heaven is; THAT level of ignorance in heaven just ain't going to happen!

    Christians rightly make a big issue of a perfect physical resurrection and a perfect restoration for saved bodies, followed by an eternal existence on a physical new earth/heaven where we will live with the blessings of God forever. We wrongly tend to overlook that dead non-believers will also be eternally resurrected but they will live a putrified eternal existence in the still unpopulated lake of fire hell that will be totally devoid of the good things of God.

    That does NOT mean everyone in hell will be punished the same; God is just and that would not be just! And such ungodly mindless punishment of everyone would NOT be in accordance with punishments according to the harmful works lost people do in this life. But ... the best seats in hell will still be in hell so no lost person can rightly hope to get a cool seat with ice water close by because he thinks he's really not so bad.

  5. #85
    Boolit Master

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    Rizzo,

    I don't think anything ever rang more true to me than this:

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus (dead over 200 years B.C.)

    You asked why I used the plural "gods". Two reasons:

    1. The Greek/Roman model of multiple gods at odds with each other using mankind as their pawns and playthings goes a long way to explain the world before us.

    2. Sometimes I just look around and say "yeah. . .this is one of those messes that was designed by committee"

    As I try to wrap my brain around the Christian constructs, I gather it goes something like this:

    * All-powerful, perfect being creates an imperfect race (which implies this being ISN'T all-powerful OR perfect).

    *Imperfect race is given the ability to make its own decisions and come to its own conclusions (Which will, by definition, be imperfect ones).

    *All powerful, perfect being sends any members of the imperfect race to be used as Satan's candle wicks if the conclusions reached aren't the right ones (Hmmmm. . . so the all-powerful, perfect being needed to make an industrial-sized paper shredder for disposing of all the mistakes he made).

    *All-powerful perfect being that supposedly wants members of the imperfect race to be happy allows them to keep reproducing a never-ending supply of new souls that - lacking direct guidance - will continue making the same wrong choices. This leads to ever more of the imperfect ending up as Satan's candle wicks.

    *All-powerful, perfect being then says "It's all good! All you have to do is acknowledge how right and awesome I am (after I dropped you into this goat rodeo), and you'll get to ride around on sun-bathed clouds after your handful of decades of suffering without knowing why".

    So, my inclination is then to put about as much trust in this being as I would the engineer that gave us the Ford Pinto, or maybe even the Yugo.

    Think of the attributes of a good business or military leader. They encourage talent and put it where it can best be used; they get the various talents to work together; they lay out an overall objective to strive toward; they ideally can do a lot of the lesser jobs themselves and will step in to do them when the situation requires; and, most of all, they are SEEN doing these things, thus inspiring confidence in the (clearly stated) mission.

    In contrast, the classic monotheistic gods seem to be the negligent boss out on permanent vacation leaving the various less-capable department heads to quarrel with each other and allow the company to decline into obsolescence and bankruptcy.

    None of which provides any clear answer to your question of "Why are we here?", but it does narrow the focus to fewer relevant talking points:

    * The boss is clearly out to lunch and we're going to have to fend for ourselves. In the fending for ourselves, do we. . .

    *. . .advance ourselves individually, or. . .

    *. . .advance ourselves collectively?

    Ghengis Khan got pretty far with Option A - to the point that something like 10% of all modern people of Asian descent are carrying his DNA. If God put us here for Darwin to do the sorting, then old Ghengis surely made God happy. Not so good if the plan is deeper than just spreading your seed around as proof that you're God's ultimate construct.

    Option B gives you teamwork, agriculture, and advancing civilizations. This seems like a good idea until you realize that your whole society has grown to keep it's slow, dumb, and weak members from being eaten by leopards and crocodiles, the result being that the slow, dumb, and weak live long enough to start breeding, and your society becomes slower, dumber, and weaker as a result - - made worse by the fact that your more Ghengis-like forebears took out all the leopards and crocs.

    So, we aren't likely to get any consensus even there (Hell, I can't agree with myself). Thus, I follow Epicurus until the boss actually decides to show up for work and demonstrate some competence.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy
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    Bigslug,
    You make some good thoughtful points.
    Your interpretation of the Christian constructs are logical and thought provoking.

    So, my inclination is then to put about as much trust in this being as I would the engineer that gave us the Ford Pinto, or maybe even the Yugo.
    Thus, I follow Epicurus until the boss actually decides to show up for work and demonstrate some competence.
    ...and from a different post:
    I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods
    You seem to be frustrated and on the fence about your belief in a God.
    With what you have written, I can understand that.

    However, for whatever reason why God is the way He is...all of this creation around us came from somewhere, so here we are in the middle of this "goat rodeo" (LOL! I got a belly laugh from that) trying to understand it all.

    I have pondered questions like yours myself to a point that I was always thinking about it and trying to figure it out with my logic. I have concluded that I can't figure out the "whys" and now just try to live a good life via the "Golden Rule".
    1A - 2A = -1A

  7. #87
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    Big Slug, you don't believe because you don't WANT to. It's really just that simple. Whatever motivates you to choose so blithely is beyond me, and not for me to say.

    But to the original question, "Why are we here?", my take on it is that we may not be capable of knowing, and we have no real need to know this. Look at the Bible. Would we really want it to be expanded several times over? We struggle enough with it as it is already! Maybe God just felt what to him may feel like lonliness, and wanted whole throngs of people to share His love with Him. I don't know, and don't need to. All I know is that we ARE here, and we have a crucial decision to make regarding God. Will we accept and try to follow Him, or will we reject and poke fun at Him and His devotees? Each of us must make that decision separately and with finality. All He really wants is our acceptance and to see us try, as best we know how, to follow His teachings, directions and advice.

    Is there one denier who can point to another entity who has never lied to them or led them astray? God has never, and WILL never lie to us nor lead us astray. Everything outside of God will. It's clear, to all who really care, that God is God for a reason, and it's to provide us a benchmark to strive for. We are so richly blessed to have a God who loves us, and does all He can to steer us to the righteous path. Praise God from whom all our blessings flow!

  8. #88
    Boolit Master

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    No B.W., I don't believe in your system because it has never passed my smell test, as I've made abundantly clear in the past, and you fail to accept. I suspect Rizzo may be on nearly the same wavelength - else why would he launch the thread?

    I do wonder why you say I "blithely" choose this view of the hard reality which risks telling your presumed Master of the Universe to pound sand, while you're the one latched on to what be could easily be lumped in with Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy by one who hadn't been long-steeped in the dogma tub.

    Now, you're responding to the O.P.'s question of "Why?" with "You don't need to know". Opiate of the Masses, indeed. If we're going to get heaved about and shelled on this Higgins Boat known as Life, you shouldn't be so shocked to find that some of us want to know the purpose of the guy that ordered us aboard. "Moves in mysterious ways" may stop all your lines of questioning, but for many, it really doesn't cut it.

    Apologies Rizzo - Blackwater and I arrive at this point frequently. His engine doesn't run on reason and my injectors clog when you try to run mine on faith, so our world views tend to collide. An unfortunate case of "it is what it is"
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  9. #89
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    No B.W., I don't believe in your system because it has never passed my smell test, as I've made abundantly clear in the past, and you fail to accept. I suspect Rizzo may be on nearly the same wavelength - else why would he launch the thread?
    I apply critical thinking to matters like "religion"......let's call it "Spirituality" beliefs instead.
    By your statements it seems that you do also and have come to your conclusions.
    You are sincere in your beliefs and so are others here.
    Although this can promote disagreement, it also promotes civil discussion,....an exchange of views that sometimes make one (including myself) go "Hmmm.....I think I'll check that out".
    I launched this thread with that in mind.

    Apologies Rizzo - Blackwater and I arrive at this point frequently. His engine doesn't run on reason and my injectors clog when you try to run mine on faith, so our world views tend to collide. An unfortunate case of "it is what it is"
    Thank you Bigslug, but none needed.
    I certainly have had interactions with others because of my beliefs within a thread topic but overall they stem from the original topic and why we believe what we do.
    It's all good.
    I have to say that you add a bit of humorous overtones to some of your statements that emphasize your beliefs.
    Thanks for your input.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    I flinch when I see the nature of God slandered.
    We are breaking the covenant God made with America.
    God will scatter us, just as He scattered the children of Israel.
    Most died, the rest were enslaved.
    Do you think that can't happen here?
    Do you think a tool that makes holes in things will help?

    I believe God made man perfect, in God's own image.
    "Fearfully and wonderfully made..." sings the Psalm.
    I believe I was born a babe to Adam's fallen race.
    I certainly took up a life of sin that should have killed me.

    I repented, was redeemed, I am certainly a different person.
    May I say "born again"? Re-born, if you like...
    I know now why I am here...but...
    I would like to know what God saved me for
    what He would have me do.

    Beware saying "Why does God..."
    when you mean "If I were God I wouldn't do that".
    There is a God.
    You aren't Him.

    Romans 8 concludes:

    Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Amen

  11. #91
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    Big Slug, I came back here to see how you'd respond, and it's just as I suspected. Just regurgitating the same old, tired mantra you live by. So be it, but one day, you will rue it all. And when you meet the Lord face to face, it will be too late to acknowledge Him or backtrack. I just pray that something will open your eyes and heart before it's too late for you.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Big Slug, I came back here to see how you'd respond, and it's just as I suspected. Just regurgitating the same old, tired mantra you live by. So be it, but one day, you will rue it all. And when you meet the Lord face to face, it will be too late to acknowledge Him or backtrack. I just pray that something will open your eyes and heart before it's too late for you.
    Pot, meet Kettle. I'm pretty sure your mantra is older and more fatigued than mine, by a few thousand years. Rizzo seems to have seen some holes worn in it, which is, after all, why we're here chatting.

    Look, I'm going to continue share my views, and you're going to find the fact that I consider yours much more unlikely to be real than many others disturbing. You can constructively disagree, but if all you're going to do is wring your hands over my doomed soul (A.) you're wasting your breath on me, and (B.) I doubt very much that anybody else wants to hear it. If it ultimately turns out that I'm wrong, I'll stand by my position, crack a few brews, and compare notes with Satan about asking pointed questions of unfathomable bosses.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  13. #93
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    I flinch when I see the nature of God slandered.
    This is a good post (#90) that gets to the heart of the questioning. The nature of God and his motives is indeed one of the big questions that doubters of any religious system are going to ask.

    This being a gun forum, let me phrase this from a common form of reference. If God wants us to be one thing - say, an Anschutz Olympic match rifle - why does he build us as something else - a Ruger 10/22? You can (and guys do) swap out every single part on a Ruger 10/22 to one that was not made by Ruger, including the receiver, in a quest to improve its accuracy, yet you will not see a single Ruger 10/22 taking home medals in International Smallbore because at their core, International Smallbore is not what 10/22's are intended for - - so much so that nobody even brings one.

    So if God is the ultimate engineer, with the ultimate factory with an unlimited production budget, why does he continue to churn out billions of 10/22's if International Smallbore is the game he wants to play?

    If all he can make is 10/22's and he's trying to sort out how to make the best 10/22 possible so he can take a destined-to-fail stab at the International Smallbore game, that may be an admirable goal, but he is probably not worthy of that title of "Ultimate Engineer", which brings us back to the "Why call him God?" quote from Epicurus I put up a few posts back.

    Another big question on the nature of God is that if he supposedly wants us to follow a certain line so we can all be "saved" and if he weeps when we step off it, then why is he apparently MUCH more comfortable with allowing us to kill each other arguing over what that line is than he is with the idea of lighting up the path in a way that everyone can say "Oh yeah. There it is"?

    All of that is to throw out for consideration the possibility that God may not be what you think he is. It would certainly be within the pattern of the ancient Greek gods to send us to the Olympics demanding a gold medal in Smallbore (aka "salvation"). . . while giving us only a 10/22 to win it with. What we would then have is a sport that requires the skill of the real Olympics, gets played with the abilities of the Special Olympics, and has the high stakes of The Hunger Games.

    The PARTICIPANTS in NASCAR have the great sense of urgency to improve their cars and driving ability to win cash, fame, and glory. The VIEWERS of NASCAR that actually fund the sport are mostly just there to watch them crash. Humans crash a lot, keep racing, and don't seem to get much better at it. Since the sport continues, one has to wonder what really puts the smile on the audience's face.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  14. #94
    Boolit Master
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    OK - firearm forum analogy.
    Uncle Sam pulled my number in 1971 and forgot to draft me.
    The recruiter said I would be fine stuffing my size 15 feet into their boots.
    No, thank you.
    When I was a twenty-something, I was a gun that would not shoot straight.
    I had a little Colt that I could not hit a barn with, standing in the barn.
    If you had met me in the dark, you would have cheerfully shot me.
    The R-rated version of me seeing the Light will not be on the interweb.
    Now-a-days I am on the 100yd gong straight with my .44.
    No more addiction, no idols, a new life. Joy.
    At the end of a week I was an evangelical baptized in the river Pentecostal, saved by Grace and only Grace, wondering what had happened. The Light is a very bright Light. One day we all will see it.
    You do not at all need a religion. "...all your mind...", He said. Jesus came to free us, not enslave us.
    Re-lig = re-chain. I admire Pentecostals, but now I am a washed in the Blood independent Baptist. Sola Scriptura. I don't thump my Bible, I turn the pages very carefully.
    What you have, we have, we all have is a relationship with God. The relationship is yours to deny or accept, a choice. Some religion is not worth supporting. No-one can tell you what your relationship to God is.
    I will witness how my life was saved.
    Make no mistake, He is real.
    Prayers are answered.
    Faith is a fact of life.
    I am sorrowed to watch America come apart one soul at a time.
    "Freedom" once meant to be free to serve God as you choose.
    No King, no Pope, no far away Council of Churches. Free.
    Read "The Coming Fury" by Catton, we are at 1860 all over again.
    Only revival will save America.
    A million people are praying that prayer,
    so make a note on your calendar for 2030.

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