they should be strung up by their trigger fingers
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they should be strung up by their trigger fingers
From the link: https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,...9754--,00.html
Violation of permits, season, bag limits, shooting hours and methods of taking game - Potential punishment - $50 to $500 fine and/or up to 90 days in jail. That means a person convicted could receive a $50 fine and no jail time.
Illegal taking/possession of deer, bear or wild turkey, Potential punishment- $200 to $1,000 fine and 5 to 90 days in jail, restitution of $1,500 for bear, $1,000 for deer/turkey, plus revocation of hunting licenses for remainder of year convicted, plus next three consecutive years. That means the convicted could receive a $200 fine, 5 days in jail with all 5 days suspended, be ordered to pay restitution and lose his hunting license for 3 years. (a savvy defense attorney would continue the case beyond the remainder of the first hunting season so that the maximum suspension of license would only be 3 years.)
Illegal use of artificial light with bow and arrow, crossbow or firearm. Potential Punishment - $100 to $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail, plus revocation of hunting licenses for remainder of year convicted, plus next consecutive year. This means the convicted could receive a $100 fine and lose his hunting license for 1 year.
Carrying a firearm while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Potential Punishment - $500 fine and/or up to 93 days in jail. That could be a $500 fine and no jail time.
Multiple offender: three convictions within preceding five years. Potential punishment -$500 to $2,000 fine and 10 to 180 days in jail. This could be a $500 fine, 10 days in jail with all of the jail time suspended.
Judges always have the discretion to suspend part or all of a punishment unless the law specifically limits that discretion.
Poachers and sign shooters make some view all hunting and gun owners in a more negative light. I often hear stories that show that those who ignore game and hunting laws like all thieves get greedy. The chance of getting caught on a single violation is pretty small. However when greed leads to multiple violations the cumulative risk of getting caught one of those times becomes much higher.
It is the squirrel rule I made up on the back deck. Squirrel has to beat the dog to the tree or the fence every time, dog only has to win that race once for the squirrel to lose big.
Poaching elk is to steal a limited resource from those who play by the rules as well as puts the overall health and availability of the elk herd at risk.
I was particularly dismayed at the illegal feeding operation. Bait feeders are a prime way that some devastating deer diseases are spread. The deer are essentially eating grain that other deer have slobbered on and breathed all over. Unnaturally high amount of that type of contact compared to grazing behavior.
Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.
Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.
Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat
I found the wording in this post a bit confusing, but after careful study, I agree 100%!!!Originally Posted by porthos
R.D.M.
I'm one of the rare ones who does not support the extreme penalties we are seeing today for poaching. The big time repeat offenders are one thing. I remember a guy not too long ago who was caught with something like 100 bluegill over the limit. Then later caught doing the same exact thing. Yeah, that guy is a problem.
For so many cases, the punishment is so far exceeded I can't believe people agree with some of this stuff. I can't find the article now, but there was a group of guys, I think 3 of them, fishing on Lake of the Woods. They were caught on their way back with 4 walleye over the limit. Those guys lost everything, the truck, the boat, suspended licenses, you name it. And the fines were crazy, something like $10,000 per fish. Did they break the law? Yeah. Is it reasonable to destroy 3 peoples lives over a small number of fish? Absolutely not.
This father and son definitely broke the law, but it sure doesn't seem worthy of all but hanging them like I read here. Bedbugbilly says shooting an elk, deer, and turkey without a license are no different than the rioting this is burning buildings and killing people. Really?
Someone once asked me, "have you ever met a game warden who was nice to you". I thought, and thought, and after a while I said yes. There has been a couple times, but overall experiences have been very poor. What a miserable job, with a bunch of miserable people. Until they are brought in check, I have no respect for them. That's the crux of the problem. There are so few game wardens, and the general solution has been to completely let them loose, they are more free of the law than any police officer. All this leads to is poor results. Fines are not the solution either. They can already take dang near every thing you own. If that doesn't stop someone, why would taking even more help?
It's kind of like gun control. Why would you continue to punish the law abiding, when the criminals are going to do it no matter what?
I've been listening to exaggerated tales about horribly disproportionate consequences for minor offenses most of my life.
Here's how they go, "I heard about these guys that got caught double parking and they were thrown in prison for 40 years........"
Those stories have lots of origins; some are created by defense attorneys to generate sympathy for their poor little client that was picked on by the evil, all powerful, government (and then regurgitated by the gullible press). Some are created by the criminals themselves (No I wasn't the get-away driver for that bank robbery. I was just double parked and I got 10 years) A lot are just stories that get added to over time to make them more entertaining.
Whenever you hear some story that sounds like there was some horribly disproportionate outcome, ask yourself, who would benefit from creating that story"?
And if you need convincing that people distort the truth to further an agenda, watch the next riot and listen to the supporters as they label it a "peaceful protest".
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 08-31-2020 at 08:00 PM.
I've got plenty of 1st hand stories of game wardens.I've been listening to exaggerated tales about horribly disproportionate consequences for minor offenses most of my life.
Here's how they go, "I heard about these guys that got caught double parking and they were thrown in prison for 40 years........"
Those stories have lots of origins; some are created by defense attorneys to generate sympathy for their poor little client that was picked on by the evil, all powerful, government (and then regurgitated by the gullible press). Some are created by the criminals themselves (No I wasn't the get-away driver for that bank robbery. I was just double parked and I got 10 years
Whenever you hear some story that sounds like there was some horribly disproportionate outcome, ask yourself, who would benefit from creating that story"?
And if you need convincing that people distort the truth to further an agenda, watch the next riot and listen to the supporters as they label it a "peaceful protest".
One of the earliest I can remember was my brother and I, ice fishing with dad. I doubt I was more than 5 years old. As kids do, we ran out the door to play. Waiting at the door was the game warden, who quickly walked in the door and gave dad a ticket for multiple fishing lines (only allowed 2).
There was the time not long after that the game warden showed up unannounced one day and started rummaging through out things. Mom went outside to find out who it was (these sneaky guys park down the street and wear all brown). I do not know what happened after that, but after being satisfied we did not have an over limit of game, he left.
When I was just beginning to really hunt, the local game warden out in Douglas county was a real dingus. He would hide up in a treestand, on private land, and watch us. Lo and behold, I saw a few technicalities he got us on. One of the less impressive ones was back when the definition of tagging animals was not so clear. My uncle had drug a deer to the truck before tagging it. Back then you couldn't even roll an animal over without a tag on it.
It was likely only my 2nd time out in the deer stand with dad, and the warden decided to wander up, prime time for deer, all brown clothes, not a spec of orange on him. He starts complaining to dad how he was not wearing enough orange. At the time, the law said that only the torso needed orange, and dad had an entire orange overall suit on, but a natural fur hat. Since no law was broken, he went on his way, except for ruining my day.
Fishing has not been as bad, and these are the only times I've had good experiences. I was one of the earlier converts to "quick-strike" rigs for live bait for northerns and musky. I was experimenting with my own before it was a common thing to see in a store. At the time, the law said that only a single hook may be used, no treble hooks. The catch was that the definition of a "lure" included up to 3 hooks, including treble hooks, however it needed to either mimic a minnow or have a spinner blade close to the first hook. This law was clearly intended for the Lindy rigs, but I built my quick strikes to meet this criteria. As a result, I started hooking more fish, and nearly eliminated gut hooking. All was good until stopped by a game warden, who just about lost it on me. I kept trying to recite the definition, which I'm sure came off as a smart ***. Eventually he found I was right, and it was not long after MN eliminated the definition, and started to allow quick strike rigs.
Ever need clarification on something? Don't ever bother to ask the MNDNR. I could not even guess how many questions I have asked. Many over emails, many over phone. Always the same either I'll direct your call, or direct your email to someone. And you will never hear from them again.
I have never been fined or ticketed myself. It terrifies me to no end though, that one small mistake is the the difference between now and loosing everything I have. One fish over the limit because I failed to see a special regulation on a lake, or one duck because I either miscounted or shot two with one shot, anything can happen, and they can take everything I own. It isn't right.
Really ???
Why are you "terrified"?
How could you "lose everything you have"?
What laws are you violating that would result in the state, "taking everything you own"?
You watched some family members receive a few summons for violations that you admit were actual violations and that instills a lifelong fear??????
Maybe you should get some counseling for those unfounded fears.
One mistake, that's all it takes. We all make mistakes, we all break laws unintentionally, don't kid yourself. A good example is all the AIS laws we now have. Ever fish with leeches? Ever change the water in their container when you leave? Me either, and I don't know anyone that has. If caught, that is a $500 fine in Minnesota. I duck hunt a lot. All it could take is to accidentally shoot a "mallard" that turns out to be that 4th wood duck. Run into the wrong game warden and I could loose my shotguns, boat, truck, everything I had that day.
I guess I'll just to go through life kidding myself because I don't live in constant fear of receiving a Summons for a minor Misdemeanor offense.
Even if I inadvertently violate some minor misdemeanor law, the punishment for it will not be: death, imprisonment, flogging or "Losing Everything I Have".
Here in Tn yrs ago game warden told of taking trucks used to transport illeagel deer by taking blood sample from tailgate and matching it to carcass
Well, I'll be sure not to commit any GROSS misdemeanors that may result in jail time but usually just result in fines.
I have seen the feds in action & ain't pretty
And I've seen people perpetuate stories of harsh outcomes for minor game violations that were not true.
from where I sit I do not see any hunting involved with these slobbering poachers
it's to bad the father taught his son the ways of the scum bag
Hit em'hard
hit em'often
I mostly support the wildlife guys, but I lost my favorite rifle and one year of hunting to some BS. Learned that the particular guy had a bad rep for doing things like that, and judge took all of 5 minutes to rule against me. It was more expensive to fight it, but I was not guilty so wasn't about to plead guilty. I have had tickets issued in the past, and while I thought it was BS, I was guilty of it so paid my fine. One was for not having registered a 2 man raft with a trolling motor, and the other was for being about 10 yards into another county, pre GPS and no markings, where centerfire rifles were not allowed.
Another thing I don't support, what-so-ever, is them being able to search vehicles without probable cause, and able to place cameras on private property without a warrant. I get being able to check private properties during hunting seasons, as most hunting happens out in the woods, but leaving cameras out on private property, no, not without a warrant.
"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
~Pericles~
Omega - I hear you and there is a lot to be learned in what you wrote:
The first is while you did suffer the consequences of your actions, those consequences were proportionate to the violation. They didn't involve incarceration or "the loss of EVERYTHING you owned". So once again, while minor game law violations have some consequences, we're not talking about capital punishment, prison or some other 8th amendment "cruel and unusual" type punishment.
As for forfeiture of vehicles and weapons used in connection with some game law violations, that's NOT the game warden inflicting that loss; that's the legislature. Ultimately, it wasn't the game warden that seized your rifle, it was the court acting in accordance with the law enacted by the legislature. So while you may not like it, it wasn't the officer's choice.
As for the long standing myth that game wardens have the ability to search vehicles without probable cause, that's not completely accurate.
Game wardens, like any other police officer, have the authority to search a vehicle, without a warrant; when they have probable cause to support that search. This exception to the 4th amendment search warrant requirement is established in the case Carroll v. U.S. (1925) You can read it here and it is STILL controlling case law:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/267/132.html
Because the authority of a game warden to act as a police officer has been challenged, many states have passed specific laws to address a game warden's authority to search a vehicle without a warrant for game law violations. If game wardens had the authority to just randomly search any vehicle, police officers in urban areas would simply bring a game warden with them and ask the game warden to search every car the police officer wanted to search. It doesn't work that way.
So while game wardens do have the authority to SOMETIMES search vehicles without a warrant when they have probable cause of a game law violation, they DO NOT have the absolute authority to just search any vehicle on a whim. This lie has been repeated for so many years people cite it as fact.
As for placing cameras on private property without a warrant, that is also well established in case law for many decades. Privately owned land is not necessarily the same thing as the inside of your home. Open field searches do not require search warrants. Your right to privacy in your home is very well protected but your right to privacy on land you own is not the same thing. The courts have been very clear on this issue. Outside of the curtilage of your home (the area immediately around your house where you have an expectation of privacy) the police DO NOT need a search warrant.
Law enforcement can go upon the land of another person, even posted land of another person, to fulfill some law enforcement need.
There is FAR less 4th amendment protection to land than there is to persons, dwellings, records, etc.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/open_field_doctrine
SO, you may not LIKE the fact that the police can go upon the lands of another and even leave a camera there, but it is not a 4th amendment violation.
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 09-02-2020 at 12:57 PM.
I noticed you mentioned the court system Petrol and Powder - so I will start there
The state marine resource officers are a group of fine people doing the best they can do to enforce the law and protect the state's natural resources . The fines generally start at around a hundred bucks + court cost for the first violation , so if you make a simple mistake it's quite reasonable . The fines go up the next offense - so the more hard headed you are the more you pay for the lessons . That's the state
I can say the game wardens in my little piece of the world are just as reasonable , I have hunted here for 40 years and have never had a warden stop my hunt to check my license , on top of that with a simple phone call they are happy to help with information , or actually come in person to be of assistance . I sat in a courtroom in the 80s while the judge issued me a fine for around a thousand and seized my rifle , I had it coming and deserved it - the judge could have taken my truck as well . This is all fine and done out in the open in a court room .
Now I'll get to the problem with the feds for you Petrol & Powder
Abuse of the Lacey Act
Excessive Civil Penalties
It's a real thing and it really happens
toallmy, I appreciate your honesty and I think you have a good grasp on the situation.
We have laws which means someone has to enforce those laws. The people enforcing those laws are never the people that enacted those laws.
We have both state and federal criminal justice systems in the U.S.A. and while federal game laws can potentially carry harsher penalties than some state laws, I can only remember two cases when the feds got involved in the prosecution of a felony game violation. Both of those cases were larger conspiracies that involved significant federal crimes with lots of players. One was the systematic killing of birds of prey for money and the other was a large criminal organization killing bears for Asian customers.
On the state side of things, very few game laws even carry a jail sentence and when they do, active jail time is almost never ordered by the court.
For the most part, game laws are like parking laws and vehicle inspection laws. We want people to comply with the law therefore we must enforce the law, but nobody is going to prison over this stuff.
As a fellow Virginian, you may be familiar with our classification of misdemeanors. A class 3 or 4 misdemeanor doesn't even carry a possibility of a jail sentence. Most Virginia game laws are class 3 or 4 misdemeanors and the few that are not (like taking deer with a spotlight, a class 2) seldom result in jail time.
Even on the federal side of the fence, most game violations are handled in Federal Magistrate Court (the federal equivalent of General District court were most misdemeanors are tried).
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 09-02-2020 at 07:52 PM.
Speak for yourself. I would trade having my hunting rights revoked for years for 90 days in jail.
I will say not all states are the same. South Dakota is phenomenal. The one and only warden I talked to, I went looking for. He was very courteous, and even told me where I could find swans, which is what I was hunting. Emails to SDGFD are returned within a day or three, and answer any questions I have.
That isn't Minnesota.I've never had either an email or phone question answered, and I don't know anyone who has. One time I even called the warden for my area directly, his number being listed multiple times online. His response "how did you get this number?" Eventually I asked my question, and was stuck with the same old MN DNR answer "ill have to call you back" Of course that never happens.
They don't answer questions about their muddy laws, and they follow you like you are a criminal the rest of the time. They ruin hunts just to bully you.
Back to the father and son, a reasonable fine would suffice. The way people talk, they could spend a year in jail, fined $20,000, loose their vehicles, guns, and who knows what else, and people would still cry they got off easy.
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