Pushing the envelope with Herco in .38spl+P

[ddixie884]

Grafs had Herco on sale and I bought 3lbs. I have meant for over 40yrs to try some maximum loads of Herco with 160gr in .38spl. In the 70s I loaded a lot of .38spl mostly with Unique but some of the manuals and magazines were praising max loads of Herco in the area of 6gr with 160gr. Speer #11 and Hornady#II both listed these loads but I never got around to trying them. Yesterday I loaded a short ladder of loads 20 each from 5.4 to 6.0gr in .2gr steps. Today I tried these out on my 1/2 size steel combat target. I wasn't trying for groups just for shoooting impressions. All loads were full power in a LCRX and even 6.0 wasn't painful. I believe the 5.4 will make +P and I'm sure 6.0 probably is the max I will ever use.
I would not hesitate to use these loads for SD, HD or carry. This Herco has no mention of new cleaner or any such and I would say it is pretty dirty. I put a medium crimp on these and I will try a heavier one in the future. Bullet lube and residue made a gooey mess on the case mouths and I need to work on that. I'll try to post more later. Herco sure isn't as clean as the VV powders I have been testing lately but it isn't as expensive either.........

[tazman]

I have a 2001 manual from Alliant the shows a max load of 4.5 grains of Herco with a 158 grain lead SWC in 38 Special.
Velocity was supposed to be around 930 fps.
For +P they showed a max of 4.7 grains.
I think I would save your load for magnum handguns.

[Ozark mike]

None of my books even list herco. But it sounds scary

[USSR]

I have a 2001 manual from Alliant the shows a max load of 4.5 grains of Herco with a 158 grain lead SWC in 38 Special.
Velocity was supposed to be around 930 fps.
For +P they showed a max of 4.7 grains.
I think I would save your load for magnum handguns.

tazman,

I'm surprised at the low charge weights listed for such a slow burn rate powder as Herco. I use HS-6/W540, in which Winchester lists a maximum .38 Spl +P charge weight of 7.2gr for a 158gr lead bullet. I use 7.0gr and get 940fps out of my 2.5" snubbie.

Don

[farmerjim]

Lee modern Reloading N0. 1 has 4.5 grains of herco as the max for 158 grain lead in the 38 sp. 7.9 grains in the 357 Mag

[tazman]

tazman,

I'm surprised at the low charge weights listed for such a slow burn rate powder as Herco. I use HS-6/W540, in which Winchester lists a maximum .38 Spl +P charge weight of 7.2gr for a 158gr lead bullet. I use 7.0gr and get 940fps out of my 2.5" snubbie.

Don

I can't comment on that. I only posted what was in the manual.

[ddixie884]

Well, like I said I was pushing the envelope but using published charges. I will point out that standard .38spl is 17K and +P is 20K and CIP is 23.2K in Europe. Meanwhile modern manuals often publish loads at just under or over 16K and +P at just over 18K and say never exceed. I don't recommend these loads and if you try them go slow. I on the other hand have fired them from an airweight 5 shot snub and got no indications of pressure and no sticky cases. I am just sharing my experience as I would like others to share with me.

As an aside I will point out that most mainstream load manuals list practically the same charge as Unique which is a much faster powder than Herco............

[Harter66]

I recently received a quantity of Herco . My search through manuals lead me to see that it typically was 90% of Unique and 100 fps faster . Very wide brush here and all in 45 ACP and Colts from Lyman 43- Speer #12 . Newer books are lacking . 1974 Hornady gave essentially identical data for both Unique and Herco .

Ben Amonti at Alliant was very helpful to me some yr ago but may have retired by now . He was more than helpful going to the library for data .

[dverna]

I recently received a quantity of Herco . My search through manuals lead me to see that it typically was 90% of Unique and 100 fps faster . Very wide brush here and all in 45 ACP and Colts from Lyman 43- Speer #12 . Newer books are lacking . 1974 Hornady gave essentially identical data for both Unique and Herco .

Ben Amonti at Alliant was very helpful to me some yr ago but may have retired by now . He was more than helpful going to the library for data .

Yes, Ben was very helpful and prompt. Hope he is doing well.

[ddixie884]

Can anyone run this thru Quickload, just for grins and giggles............

[colonelhogan44]

Warning, unpopular opinion!

Why push the envelope? Just load the published 38 load or get a 357 and start at the published 38 load and work up a tad in 357 mag brass.

[Ozark mike]

Warning, unpopular opinion!

Why push the envelope? Just load the published 38 load or get a 357 and start at the published 38 load and work up a tad in 357 mag brass.

I agree

[OS OK]

Can anyone run this thru Quickload, just for grins and giggles............

Look at your most recent post on this...
HELP! Need Quickload for .38spl 158gr 6gr Herco.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...58gr-6gr-Herco

[ddixie884]

Just checked it and thank you very much for running this simulation for me. I think your simulation shows this load is under 18.5K psi. Even if you missed the case volume by a little bit, I think I'm at or under 20K. If that is right then I am on the right track. Thanx again for your help............

[35remington]

Herco needs a couple tenths of a grain more powder to get the same velocity and pressure as Unique. It is only a little slower. Thus suggestions that about 5.5 grains is upper end Plus P to the 20,000 psi level are most likely accurate.

Most data such as Lyman shows 5.3 grains Unique is Plus P. Six grains of Herco would be well past that. This based on actual testing rather than a prediction. One is science.....the other a guesstimate.

[Larry Gibson]

None of my books even list herco. But it sounds scary

Perhaps there is a reason most newer manuals don't show data with Herco in the 38 SPL? Could be with the advent and now common usage of piezo-transducer and strain gauge psi measurements which give a complete "picture" of the pressure curve they've found some powders aren't really suitable in some cartridges. Yesterday ran a pressure/velocity test of Alliant Herco in the 38 SPL. Pressure was measured in a Conteder with 7.94" barrel via the Oehler m43 PBL. Fps are muzzle velocities. I used the Lee TL358-158-SWC because when seated with the case crimped in the 1st lube groove it gives about the greatest seating depth of any cast 150 - 160 gr bullet. The Cartridge OAL was 1.465". The bullets were cast of COWW + 2% tin, lubed with LLA and sized at .358 and weight 162 gr fully dressed. Cases were Winchester W-W with WSP primers.

I loaded 10 shot test strings of 5.4, 5.7, 6.0 and 6.3 gr of Alliant Herco (purchased last year).

We mostly expect the measured pressure traces (time/pressure curves) to be nice smooth lines going up to max pressure and then tapering off to muzzle exit. Many times they do do that. However, many times they don't. Particularly with straight walled cases we many times see a secondary "bump" in pressure. Sometimes these are sharp bumps and are many times referred to as "spikes". I have seen a lot of secondary pressure bumps and some spikes over the many pressure tests I've conducted. As of this date I've never seen any spikes like the ones I got testing the Herco powder in the 38 SPL.

Now, before anyone gets all excited and wants to insinuate the Contender test barrel and/or the M43 has some " noise" in it before and after testing the Herco loads I ran a test string of Remington 125 gr jacketed HP factory loads. The traces were as smooth as one would expect w/o any bumps or spikes. Previous test with that Lee bullet have also produced smooth traces with other powders. Thus the test equipment was good leaving suspect the Herco Powder.

The test results;

The 5.4 gr Herco load ran 1003 fps, SD 11, ES 27 fps, psi 19,100

The 5.7 gr Herco load ran 1070 fps, SD 15, ES 40 fps, psi 23,000

The 6.0 gr Herco load ran 1092 fps, SD 14, ES 42 fps, psi 23,200 ...... all the traces showed very high secondary spikes occurring during each shot. This is the first time I have ever seen a secondary spike in the trace exceed the psi of the primary chamber psi...... perhaps this is why we no longer see Herco data for the 38 SPL?

Attachment 269024

The 6.3 gr Herco load ran 1135 fps, SD 12, ES 30 fps, psi 25,200

A subsequent test of the same Herco in the 44 SPL under the RCBS 44-250-KT did not show the sharp spikes but just little secondary bumps in psi which, as previously stated, quite common. Thus, while the internals measured quite uniformly the very sharp and high pressure spikes with Herco in the 38 SPL are of a concern. Caution should be exercised if using Herco in the 38 SPL due to the high end +P+ range of psi in the 38 SPL along with the occurrence of the very sharp and high pressure spikes..

[OS OK]

Mr. Gibson...do you have any 'theories' concerning that spike?

It's cause....perhaps a secondary ignition of all the powder that's lifted in the chamber and unburned at that point and due to the pressure and temperature, it literally explodes...or, a mechanical wave that meets in the bore behind the exiting projectile as a 'collision of standing waves' mechanically?

I'd be very interested in hearing you 'spitwad' this one...since this is such an unusual occurance.

thanks charlie

[Larry Gibson]

I've considerable different theories and conjectures, none provable w/o considerable test equipment beyond my means. Most perplexing is the absence of the spikes in the 44 SPL test loads....???? Perhaps beyond the means of even the factories? Maybe that's just the reason some powders have been dropped from the reloading manuals because they just can't explain it either?

[OS OK]

Thanks for that, I appreciate it.
When you have nothing to go on, nothing hard fact-wise...all you have are your theories but they certainly are worth exploring just for the giggle factor if nothing else. One mans thoughts often spur others into thinking a little deeper or in a different direction.
Lot'z of our so called science is based in theory.

[cwlongshot]

Im please And surprised at the up tic I see with Herco powder use!!!

I have a open pound from The days when I loaded shotgun shells. I remember this was a
Med heavy field load of 13/8 oz in my 12!! That was before 1989!!! Hahaha. I picked up a couple Pounds from a friends uncle who passed. (RIP) Because I know had more then 3# and really no perspectives for use I started checking. I found useable 45 Colt and 357 loads. I also have burned over a 1/2# 7.3g at a time from my 350 Legend shooting subsonic thumpers!!!
I thought I was alone but numerious postings across as many forums I am on says different! Wonder if there is something in the collective "water".

In any event, love the ALWAYS informative posts Larry!! You never fail to educate!

CW