Time for me to backpedal! I posted from memory instead of notes, and I posted incorrect information.Originally Posted by megasupermagnum
BPI load: BKL130315-4645
Cheddite hull, FS12 only (no cushion), with an overshot card. 16 pellets, 4x4.
Good eye!
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‘Depends on what you’re looking for’. I decided to follow the Gus Cotey article and logic. I want lots of #1 buck traveling around 1050.
I wanted the 15 pellet blue dot load from the Lyman manual (page 357) to work. I think with an 18” or 21” barrel it probably would, but I don’t have one in which to try. In my 14”, I’d get wild extreme spreads. Several shots around 1075, then one 750fps round. I kept trying it over & over, wondering if my crimps or something was the cause. But, the same ammo was very consistent, around 1350, from my 28” barrel. I’ll probably catch hell for admitting to this: I strayed from the book data, I tried substituting magnum primers. That didn’t help, either.
I probably have 300 or 350 rounds burned in this exercise. I’ve used unique, blue dot, clays, IMR red, universal, 800x, and maybe others I’ve forgotten. As far as shot goes, 4B, 1B, .310, 00, and 000, all pattern close enough to each other that it doesn’t matter. For hulls, I’ve only tried AA, Fiocchi, Cheddite and 3” Remington Nitro.
Ultimately, the ‘winner’ is going to be another Lyman manual load (page 175). AA HS hull, WAA12R wad, #1B, 12 pellets, 24.0 grains of Unique. Consistent 1050-1075fps, consistent function, and very reasonable recoil. Pretty much exactly what everyone expected, but fun to screw around with all the same.
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May I suggest that your chrony isn't reading correctly due to muzzle blast? It makes no sense at all that a 14" barrel would have huge ES, but a 28" wouldn't. Pressure is peaked before the shot even gets to the barrel. The only thing a shorter barrel would have would be much more muzzle blast, which is no small factor. You would know if your load was missing 300 fps. It would go poof instead of bang.
I thought as much, too. I’d even prefer this to be the case. I would load the 15 pellet load instead of the 12.
But I don’t understand why it wouldn’t also throw the occasional off number when shooting my 28” Winchester?
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The 28" barrel has much less muzzle blast. There is already a ton of junk flying out of a shotgun, making them hard to chronograph sometimes. That's why I always test at about 3' from the muzzle. You could try farther away, say 8', but that may not give good readings either. I'm sure you noticed the fireball when shooting those bluedot loads from your 14" barrel. That fireball is what is screwing up your reading. Unique has much less muzzle blast. As I said, you would notice if your loads were truly 750 fps. They would go pop, and you would question if they even left the barrel. I regularly shoot bluedot in barrels as short as 1 3/4" in handguns.
Sounds reasonable enough. I wish I knew someone with a magnetospeed. It would be interesting to compare it with the optical chrony (assuming that an SBS flamethrower doesn’t ruin it immediately).
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Chuck: what kind of patterns are you getting? I assume your barrel is cylinder bore? One solution that actually works is Vang Comp. www.vangcomp.com
I have two guns that have been done this way. One is a 20" Tactical M500 and the other is an 18.5" M500 that is my house gun.
Both these guns put 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. I can't see any reason why yours shouldn't do that too.
As far as your odd readings, I would go with Bogus Readings as the problem.
With a Chrony you leave the Sky Screens off then set the thing up at about 10-15 feet from the muzzle and then shoot 1-2 feet above the Chrony. If you are trying to shoot thru the sky screens the payload is too close to the readers and just the shock wave from the large payload will disrupt the reading.
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 02-08-2021 at 03:55 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
It’s a modified choke, oddly enough. I would expect a cylinder or improved. I get around 1” to 1.25” per yard with everything except flight control (obviously). Nothing to brag about, or cry about I feel.
I do leave the screens off, I don’t even use them for rifle/pistol shooting. I shoot a little higher with the shotgun, but not feet high.
I shoot about 10’ back. I’d think that much further and the wad & shot column would have separated enough to cause squirrelly readings.
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Thank y'all for this topic. I'm trying to figure out a slug load for a 14" Mossberg 590A1 right now.
I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?
Lonegun: The two most popular and easy to get results in a smoothbore from,,, are the Lee 7/8oz and 1 oz slugs.(on the right side) Round Balls of .662-.690 are also good performers. (left side.)
All of these can be loaded in basic low intensity Trap Loads which can be factory loaded and opened up and substitute the Slug for the shot, or loaded that way if you reload. There is also the Lyman Sabot Slug (shown in the middle) which does pretty well from a smoothbore but works best from a rifled barrel.
There is tons of data here on loading all these slugs. Good luck and welcome to the Rabbits Hole.
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Haven't shot skeet with mine but from the 16 yard trap line low was 16 and high was 23 with about a 19 or 20 average. I shoot at a small club and every time I bring it out two or three people want to shoot it. I've maybe shot 14 or 15 rounds of trap with it but other have shot at least 20 rounds of trap with it.I have shot my 12ga Tac-14 quite a bit .... and it has become my main woods bumming gun.
Does your 14” 11-87 have a shoulder stock? If it doesn't here a suggestion":
Focus on reduced low recoil loads!!!
Full power loads are difficult to manage in a gun without a shoulder stock.... When I got my Tac-14 new I tried it ... and the result was that the gun recoiled out of my hands ... and landed in the sand in front of my feet .....
So much for 2oz Blue Dot loads .....
Here an interesting video hat explains what I mean .....
I did kill one Canadian Goose with it. 3" HV steel are a bit snappy.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-11-2021 at 12:34 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
W.R.Buchanan,
Thank you very much, Sir! I have a few moulds I have used for some time in my other shotguns, and among them is a Lee .690" RB, a Lyman .678" RB, the Lyman sabot slug, the Lyman Foster slug, a Lee 1oz slug, and a MP full bore version of the Lyman sabot slug. Now, my best load to date will consistently shoot the MP slug into 6"@100 with my 18" Mossberg 500 with a ghost ring rear and front post, and often does 4" groups with that gun, but, and I kinda hate to say it, but I use the .678" RB the most because it does 3"@50 and most of my hunting is within that range, but the RB just casts and loads the easiest with no fuss. This load completely falls apart shortly after that with groups of 6"@75 and 10-12"@100. This 14" have the same sights, , but for some reason I haven't figured out does one group into 4"@100, and then the next several groups are 8"@100. Drives me nuts, but I will figure it out. And if not, I will just keep it a 50yd hog gun instead of picking up drinking.
I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?
Lonegun: Your current results are about as good as it gets from a smoothbore. 3" at 50 yards is pretty good shooting. You've got all the slug moulds you need, unless you want to get into some of the Heavy Russian Slugs which don't really shoot any better, they are just heavier.
As far as the sporadic groups in Smoothbores with Roundballs or the "Simple Slugs" like the Lee and Foster styles,,, nobody knows what causes that. We all have opinions but nobody has proven anything yet, and if they had we'd all be doing it. I personally think it is barrel fouling from the plastic wads, and I know it makes a difference in Rifled Barrels, but can offer no proof that it affects smoothbores.
I have fired 400 rounds of birdshot, buck, and slugs thru my Browning A5 "Buck Special" barrel in one class, and it shot the same at the end as it did in the beginning so obviously the bore condition didn't make any difference with that barrel. It certainly makes a difference with the Rifled Barrel for that gun and the groups start deteriorating after 5 or so shots. I am trying to figure out a way to lubricate the bore or the wads like we do with cast boolits to eliminate or at least mitigate the fouling problem.
The last batch of Lyman Sabot slugs I loaded I used some of that Mica Wad Slick from BPI on the wads so we will see how that works out. There are guys here who get 1-2" groups at 100 yards with that style slug from several different types of guns but they are are Rifled Shotguns with Scopes on them, so effectively they are ".73 Caliber Rifles."
Or more properly ".73 caliber Pellet Guns."
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
W.R.Buchanan: That is part of my problem. I have a 12ga rifled barrel for my Mossberg 500 with a 3-9x40mm scope on it, and factory loads regularly give 1.5-2"@100, and my handloads usually do 2-3"@100, so still plenty good enough, but I want to improve on it. Now, here is where my OCD kicks in. Logically, I know it really doesn't matter because almost all my hunting is inside of 50yds, with probably 90% of it being inside of 25yds because I LOVE getting in close and see it as more of a challenge than long range shooting. I still like long range for the practice, but figured out years ago that there is a huge difference between hunting and shooting. So, while logic and experience tells me that my groups are definitely good enough for the vast majority of my hunting, there is a part of me that wants to squeeze the absolute best accuracy I possibly can, and make it consistent with no flyers. I don't need the tiny groups because a hog just isn't that small, but I get this twisted level of satisfaction from small groups that I just can't explain, and so the pursuit of tiny groups continues...
I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?
on the subject of short barrel shotguns
I was watching an interview with Richard Kuklinski and he was saying how surprised he was when he shot a guy in the head with a sawed off shotgun and the guys head exploded like shooting a watermelon.
just couldn't stop thinking about what he said when I saw this thread
That is singularly the most inappropriate post I have ever seen on this forum.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Plenty more where you came from. The idea of shooting for groups is not a new idea. Many people do it and are quite satisfied with just doing that for their entire shooting experience and that is just fine. My Bro in law has been doing this for a while chasing Nirvana with his 6.5 Grendel AR. He has already shot several "1 hole" groups, but says he want to keep looking. I asked if he was looking for something worse.?
However the other way to look at it is first you develop a load for your gun, then you sight it in, and then you go shoot something with it.
Your handloads will take a lot of sifting thru powders, primers, wads, and slug types, to improve on what you already have done,,, which is pretty damn good!.
In a Rifled Barrel the actual "slug" is, in my opinion, the primary factor in accuracy. Point being, we cast these, and unlike Smaller Rifle Boolits, these Boolits are big and clunky, and as such there is lots of room for inconsistencies to occur. And those inconsistencies are magnified by the size of the slug and are going to be very hard to find and more properly deal with effectively. Minor Casting Flaws will make those 1" groups into 2-3" groups very easily.
Trying to eek out that last little bit of accuracy becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. And mostly those returns if achieved are not repeatable, so they become moot.
Now another way to go to remove those inconsistencies is to machine the slugs from Brass or some other soft material. I have had the best luck with STI Sabots and Brass Inserts that I turned on my lathe. These produced a 1x1.5" group at 50 yards from my A5s rifled barrel with open sights. Which probably would have shrunk even smaller with a scope. You'll note the first three shots were the Clover Leaf and the two other shots were added after I saw the clover leaf. That 3 shot cloverleaf is .5 x.625 or 1/2 x 5/8" !
Trying to achieve that with cast slugs is going to be nearly impossible, as there are simply too many variables. Getting it to happen twice is not ever going to happen, and in the off chance it did happen, it could only be attributable to Divine Intervention as we humans are incapable of perfection, let alone "Repeated Perfection."
One of the reasons why you get such good results with factory slugs is because they are Swaged not cast. Swaging eliminates all the possible imperfections that can occur during Casting. Most factory made slugs are Swaged.
Below is pics of the STI Sabot with Brass Insert. STI Slug with cast insert. Lightfield Slug supposed to be very accurate., Brenneke Slug also accurate and the BPI AQ Slug which you can buy to hand load and are supposed to be good from either rifled or smoothbore barrels.
I tend to look at shotgun accuracy, and for that matter rifle and pistol accuracy as well, thru the lens of "can I hit a man sized target at my intended/expected range, offhand, with teh load I've chosen. If the load/gun produces sufficient accuracy off a rest to accomplish that task then I'm good to go. for my shotguns if I can get under 3" at 50 yards with either of My M500's or A5 with Smoothbore Barrels using Lee Slugs or Round Balls that is good enough for me. With the Rifled Barrels I want to see <3" at 100 yards with iron sights, which gives me "rifle accuracy" out to and slightly beyond 100 yards.
With any of my .223 carbines I want to see 1-1.5" at 100 yards which yields sufficient accuracy to hit said man sized target out to 300 yards and beyond.
After these results have been achieved, I am done testing and that load will be what I use from then on.
My Ruger Scout Rifle .308 will consistently put 5 shots into 7/8" at 100 yards with my reloads. That load of 147 gr pulled M80 ball bullets, 45 gr of IMR 4895, produced that result on the first try. It has also duplicated that group many times. Other than the 100 Federal Cases that were factory loaded, every round fired in that gun has been that same load, and those cases have been reloaded 13 times so far. Never lost one yet. That load has also produced one 3 shot group of 4 3/4" at 500 Meters.
Why would anyone need to look farther?
This is my take on accuracy and anyone is free to do what they want as this is still a free country, but this is my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 02-12-2021 at 06:13 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
I don't know. You should read some of the other garbage that guy writes.
Reloading for semi-auto shotguns can be tricky, but when you are dealing with shorter barrels, I've found that sometimes you have to shoot a little stiffer load to get them to function reliably. Pumps like the Tac-14 & Shockwave aren't prone to this problem. Just my 2¢
wear your scars with pride, a scarless man hasn't felt the hardship of life......
W.R.Buchanan, You're absolutely correct, and that is what I do with most of my guns, but I also try to switch things up a bit and concentrate on one thing for a while, find a load it likes, and standardize that load for it, and then go back to something else and mess with it a bit to see if maybe I can improve on it a bit. Right now, my projects are mostly shotguns, with a .44 Mag Contender thrown in just for a change. I have the Contender figured out to where I am the limiting factor, and now am trying to get this shotgun to the same point.
I passed my last psych eval, how bout you?
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