Bullet runout Progressive vs Turret vs Single stage

[PNW_Steve]

Interesting discussion. I have similar questions and have ordered a Redding type S bushing sizing die and a Forester Micrometer seating die in an effort to minimize run-out.

My intention is to move most of my rifle reloading back to my Rock Chucker single stage.

Do I understand correctly that the floating bushing and the precision seating die will keep my runout to a minimum?

[kokomokid]

Best press to reduce run-out is the Forster CO-ax, it allows die to "float", finding the center. Only expensive hand dies can compete!

My Forester co-ax makes low run out ammo. David Tubb had a video showing how he free floated dies on his Dillon to make low run out and it works for him.

[1006]

You can get die float by simply not tightening the lock ring. Lee does it with o-rings under the lock ring.

Interesting info:

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/floa...lon-toolheads/

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/floa...lon-toolheads/

[dannyd]

Interesting discussion. I have similar questions and have ordered a Redding type S bushing sizing die and a Forester Micrometer seating die in an effort to minimize run-out.

My intention is to move most of my rifle reloading back to my Rock Chucker single stage.

Do I understand correctly that the floating bushing and the precision seating die will keep my runout to a minimum?

I use the Forster for 308 and 300 magnum works great for me.

[hpdrifter]

Loaded bullet runout is dependant on two things: the case necks and the dies, both sizer and seater dies.

All any press can do is push cases into and withdraw them from the dies.

IF you're chasing sub 1/4 moa groups then you will need hand dies and an arbor press - and a maybe two-three thousand dollar rig. (Many more tiny groups get fired "all day long" on a hot keyboard than on a range.)

There is no way that I'd use an "automated" press if I were searching for sub minute of angle accuracy.
Too much slop and movement.

[1hole]

There is no way that I'd use an "automated" press if I were searching for sub minute of angle accuracy.
Too much slop and movement.

Neither would I but for reasons other than runout.

Thing is, when dies are correctly adjusted the cases will be tightly held inside and, with in reason, it hardly matters how the case starts in or withdraws.

No press can possibly make a round case enter a round die with absolute precision but a bit of slack (call it slop) in the press-shell holder-die alignment will allow round cases to precisely drive home inside the dies. That's why serious BR shooters use hand dies and arbor presses; you can't get "sloppier" than that.

[Three44s]

Hmm, I have not worked with hand dies but all I have read, I did not get the perception they were sloppy.

Three44s

[oldhenry]

1006,
Thanks for that info on John Whidden's common sense solution.

First of all: John is one of the nicest, most courteous people that I've ever met in addition to being a multi time National LR champion and a world class gun smith.

In the '90s I was a tight neck, arbor press type guy & was flabbergasted when I found out that John loaded all of his 1000 yd. match ammo on a Dillon 650.

Attached is an image of my Dillon 550 quick change in .223. This is a copy of John's idea: original version. It's a simple system. The dies are not tightened. They are held into place by a roll pin through the die lock ring &into the tool head. The dies are allow to self center.

[jetinteriorguy]

I full length size with a Redding body die, followed by a Lee Collet Neck sizing die, and seat with a Forster Ultra Micrometer Seating die. This is on brass trimmed to length and necks turned. The most runout I get is .001”, most are spot on and .0005” or less. This is on a Lyman Orange Crusher press that’s around 35 years old with a lot of use.

[1hole]

..... Lastly, there will be enough manufacturing tolerances between "identical" presses that one Lee, Dillon, RCBS, whatever, will produce a different run out than the same press made a few minutes later. The link that M-Tecs posted would have been more interesting if say 3 "identical" presses had been evaluated as a control.

Good point. In the science of statistics a sample of one is so meaningless that it proves nothing. In fact, it takes a LOT more samples than even three to become statistically valid. Consider that professional political polling of 1,000 people only has something like +/- 4% accuracy. Think of that, it's still has an 8% error range even over 1,000 samples!

For presses, IF a maker could "prove" theirs is "better" than others by even a small percentage the maker could - and would - present that advantage in their advertising. The fact no one makes such statements is clear evidence they realize they can't prove their's to truly be better than others and saying so would violate truth in advertizing laws.

I once did a study of the dimensions of about fifty conventional FL sizer and seating dies from about 10 makers, partly by making chamber casts of each sizer. What I found surprised me; there was as much variation between dies of the same maker as there was between makers! BUT, happily, none of them were outside the SAAMI tolerance specifications.

Then I tested bullet run-out of loads with the seater from each die set; perhaps the most relevant results were that in no case was the "best" sizer (in my mind) matched with the best seater!

Again, I found no detectable average difference between seater die brands EXCEPT for the consistently very good-to-excellent Forster/Bonanza BR and Redding Competition seaters.

[Note: Expensive micrometer type seater plugs don't do a thing for bullet run-out, they are ONLY a (slight) advantage when changing seating depth. And no seater can load straight in bad necks.]

That testing made me realize that no matter the web hype, the price, the pretty exteriors, or the reputation of the brand doesn't tell me a thing - if I want to learn if a new die is "better" or "worse" than another I have to test both. And, from my testing, I now have no die sets for my (few) accurate rifles that aren't mixed brands. BUT, if you can't easily do extensive comparison tests for yourself I promise that you will never go badly wrong with Forster or Redding's competitive die sets because ONLY they have seater dies with a full length body sleeve that properly aligns the whole case and bullet before seating even starts.

On the other hand, I found that even the worse of common die sets aren't bad and they can make better ammo than most users can put together.

My point is, I believe the same end quality appraisal is probably true of presses. After all, a press's single work is simply to push cases into and then draw them out of dies and that's really not very demanding work.

Inside the dies are where ammo is made, therefore the specific dies we use are obviously much more important than the press they're used in!

[1hole]

Hmm, I have not worked with hand dies but all I have read, I did not get the perception they were sloppy.

Three44s

You totally miss the point of what I've been saying and don't quite understand the difference between "slop" and precision self aligning flexibility with cases and dies. Others do get it tho.

[kungfustyle]

1hole great explanation. Thanks for your contribution. Point taken.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for that info on John Whidden's common sense solution.

First of all: John is one of the nicest, most courteous people that I've ever met in addition to being a multi time National LR champion and a world class gun smith.

In the '90s I was a tight neck, arbor press type guy & was flabbergasted when I found out that John loaded all of his 1000 yd. match ammo on a Dillon 650.

Most people get all wrapped up about using benchrest techniques without fully understanding the advantages and disadvantages of those methods. Most benchrest shooters are using a relatively small number of highly tuned cases in the quest of shooting a zero sized groups. The primary disadvantage to their methods is it's very slow.

On the other hand the NRA Highpower, Palma and F-Class shooters need a much larger amount of ammunition and different type of accuracy requirements. This games are mostly won and lost by holding and wind reading ability. A benchrest shooter would be severely limited by a rifle/ammo combo that will only hold a 1/2" moa for 10 shot groups. If you are a hard holder and good wind reader a 1/2" moa for 10 shot groups will win you the Nationals.

A very large number of these shooter load exclusively on 550's, 650's and 1050'S.

I do know with my 650's or 1050's I can hold 3/8 MOA for 10 shot groups out to 300 yards. Past 300 yards most folks judge the ammo by holding the water line since the wind tends to open up the width of the groups.

Through the years I have collected a large number of single station presses and Dillon 550's, 650's, a RL 1000 and a pair of 1050's. The Dillon's are all capable of holding 3/8" MOA for 10 shot groups out to 300 yards. Dies and brass have a bigger influence than the type or brand of press unless the press is out of spec.

For the folks that don't know of John Whidden http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...n-palma-rifle/

[country gent]

I loaded all our high power ammo on dillion 650. this was .223, .243 , .308. The only changes I made was to use a harrels powder measure in place of the dillion, and a slightly heavier spring under the detente ball for the shell plate. I did use redding S bushing dies and seaters. loaded very good ammo that took me to High Master. (at the time my daughter wife and I were all competing). The 223 was for AR service and match rifles, the 243 was a pre 64 course / 1000 yd rifle with tight neck chamber ( this rifle needed bushing dies as standard dies would give enough neck tension on turned necks), The 308 wqs for 2 NM M1As with krieger barrels.
I found over sizing the neck and expanding with the ball caused a lot more tun out than a properly set up press. This was really evident with the tight necked 243 as neck tension was controlled by the bushings alone. And wall thickness variations were very small on the turned fittted brass. .002-.004 neck wall thickness variations wreak havoc on run out. From what I have checked that .002 wall thickness at the neck can be as much as .010 at the head. Straight line dies will size to whats needed and not over size. same with the seaters hold your finger over the bottom hole and drop a bullet in the top and watch it float on the cushion of air going down thru the stem portion. Tolerances are much tighter.

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and these will burn out the barrel before they go bad. When brass and chamber fit is correct sizing isnt much as spring back takes care of it. Bench rest shooters go thru a lot more but they only need those 20-25 cases. A high power shooter on the other hand may have 2000 cases in rotation, here the above sorting and prep hed never fire a shot.

[j_dude77]

One thing I have found that helps with runout if you are full length sizing. When you run the case into the sizing die, leave the case in the die with the ram full up. Now loosen the expander and run it up until you feel it hits the neck. Tighten then lower the ram. This helped tremendously with runout on 300WM. I do this with all my rifle now, since I deprime before tumbling.

[1hole]

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and they will burn out the barrel before they go bad.

All very true Country.

No serious BR competitor is going to join our contests about which threaded presses and dies are "best" for accuracy, nor how great electrically dumped and trickled charges are, or which digital powder scale will better differentiate a single kernel of powder, or which mass produced "competition" bullets are best, etc., because little or none of what we agonise over matters to him.

A BR guy coming here has to laff at our serious but doomed efforts trying to use his methods to get bug hole groups from an off the shelf commercial rifle chambered to SAAMI specs and using SAAMI spec dies screwed into our hopefully "precise" presses and loading common bullets into common cases. But, if you want to kick a hornet's nest, just try telling some hopeful guy he's wasting a lot of time worrying about meaningless (to him) trivia!

I don't want to pee on anyone's parade so when I read of a good fellow trying to duplicate BR reloading techniques for his deer rifle because it's what the experts do I usually just smile and keep moving.

[farmbif]

I'm with 1hole, I'm no precision shooter but I have no problem hitting 5 round groups within 1 inch at 100 yards using ammo I make for my old savage 111 243 win, 100 gr game kings with 4831 on a Hornady progressive with Redding dies.

[Blindshooter]

I loaded all our high power ammo on dillion 650. this was .223, .243 , .308. The only changes I made was to use a harrels powder measure in place of the dillion, and a slightly heavier spring under the detente ball for the shell plate. I did use redding S bushing dies and seaters. loaded very good ammo that took me to High Master. (at the time my daughter wife and I were all competing). The 223 was for AR service and match rifles, the 243 was a pre 64 course / 1000 yd rifle with tight neck chamber ( this rifle needed bushing dies as standard dies would give enough neck tension on turned necks), The 308 wqs for 2 NM M1As with krieger barrels.
I found over sizing the neck and expanding with the ball caused a lot more tun out than a properly set up press. This was really evident with the tight necked 243 as neck tension was controlled by the bushings alone. And wall thickness variations were very small on the turned fittted brass. .002-.004 neck wall thickness variations wreak havoc on run out. From what I have checked that .002 wall thickness at the neck can be as much as .010 at the head. Straight line dies will size to whats needed and not over size. same with the seaters hold your finger over the bottom hole and drop a bullet in the top and watch it float on the cushion of air going down thru the stem portion. Tolerances are much tighter.

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and these will burn out the barrel before they go bad. When brass and chamber fit is correct sizing isnt much as spring back takes care of it. Bench rest shooters go thru a lot more but they only need those 20-25 cases. A high power shooter on the other hand may have 2000 cases in rotation, here the above sorting and prep hed never fire a shot.

You described my experience almost exactly loading for HP. I used two Hornady Projectors, mostly prepped with one and loading on the other. Redding comp die sets and a KenLight annealing machine. I too made HM across the course and LR with ammo made on progressive machines. I always thought a bunch of really good ammo + time on the range would advance scores quicker than time spent dragging that last 1% of accuracy out of a gun and ammo. Use that time and money on the range learning how to read wind and all the other things that you have to master to get good scores.
After I legged out (M1A) I used up ammo that I had culled or just thought won't "perfect" in later leg matches. Funny, my scores were just as good or better with the culled ammo.
No bench rest experience at all but it looks like it could be fun and just as challenging in a different way.

[Lloyd Smale]

Did you have to tweak the Dillon to get it to that level?

yup ive loaded ar15 and ar10 ammo on a 550 that shot 3/4s of an inch at a 100 yards and thats just not one freek 3 shot group. When i say my gun shoots X at a 100 yards its a average of 3 5 shot groups. Unless your shooting bench rest competition or 1000 yard matches the differnce is trivial at best. Ive seen bigger differnce in runout between brands of dies then i have comparing a dillon to my rock chucker. Compare runout in your 10 dollar lee seating die to a redding bench rest seating die. Matter of fact bonanza coax press brag about the die floating around a bit saying it helps the bullet center it self. That one allways blew my mind. Lots of this comes from how you use it. Sure i will get some run out slamming out ball ammo as fast as i can feed the press. but slow down and smell the roses and make sure every bullet is started into the case straight and you can make some fine ammo on a progressive.

[1hole]

Compare runout in your 10 dollar lee seating die to a redding bench rest seating die.

Are you serious? You know that no matter what they're called no real BR shooter is going to use anyone's off-the-shelf threaded seater dies in competition!

Compare the end results of a few common brand seaters with a precision run-out gage and you'll find Lee's sneered at "$10" seaters are as good, on average, as anyone else's.

Matter of fact bonanza coax press brag about the die floating around a bit saying it helps the bullet center it self. That one allways blew my mind.

That should, because no one who knows what he's talking about has ever said that! What is said is that a bit of float in a threaded press-to-die alignment will allow the dies to self center over the loosely held cases and that's obviously true. BR shooters use (custom made) unthreaded presses and dies specifically because they cannot possibly exert any die-to-case misalignment. But no one would say a loosely fitted seater is going to "help bullets center" themselves! Well, almost no one .... ??

(And the Co-Ax press (and dies) haven't been "Bonanza" for several decades Lloyd, they are Forster now.)