I agree in all aspects.
If you look around at the super churches with media figures as their shepherds; scary.
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I agree in all aspects.
If you look around at the super churches with media figures as their shepherds; scary.
"The Lord is king forever and ever; the nations perish from his land."
Psalm 10:16 (E.S.V.)
exile
"There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776
"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)
Hey folks, I'm new to this forum and was exploring the conversations when I found your chapel. This is really neat that you would also have a chapel here to have a safe place to talk, I'm impressed. I know I'm getting into the conversation late, but the question Exile asked caught my attention. I am a Lutheran pastor and I have spent a lot of time pondering this question (I'm not saying to claim that I'm an expert, but that I'm not a crackpot). My stance is that we are in the end time, but we have been for 2000 years. The messiah has already come once, and we are simply awaiting his promised return. Jesus can return any day or another 2000 years from now. Jesus said that even he didn't know the day, only his father. That is the challenge we face, to live in joyful expectation, but to be patient as well in case it takes a while.
Hello, God bless you.....I don't come to argue, I come to learn....I learn by stating what I think I've learned and standing corrected when I'm wrong.
You say Jesus can return 'any' day? Can he? You are correct no one knows the day or hour but the season should be identifiable.
2nd Thessalonians says that day shall not come until a great falling away and the son of perdition be revealed. The son of perdition is none other than Lucifer...perdition means perish and he is the only one that has been judged to perish specifically. Ezekiel 28 tells us God will turn him to ashes. That has not happened.
Christ return at the 7th trump...Satan comes at the 6th...The 7th trump will not sound until the Witnesses lie dead for 3 and half days. This has not happened.
It is my belief the beast will rise from the sea...the sea being 'the people'....The beast will be a political system of 10 kings from 7 major continental areas. It's going to (try) to bring peace to a war ravaged and economically bankrupt world...it will work for a short time but receive a 'deadly wound' and then the 6th trump will sound...pretty boy will come in peacefully and prosperously with all the answers...he will be the smartest guy you ever listened to...handsomest dude on the planet...call fire from the sky in the sight of men and the bulk of the earth will hwore after him.
He gets 5 months.
Jesus return at the 7th trump. The people realize they've been had and beg for the mountains to fall upon them.....My master returns with a rod of iron and the lamb is now a lion. Discipline will be rough for many people. Sad day for many...a day of reward for the faithful.
To my understanding, this is how the scripture reads. What do you believe?
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
I'm pretty well sold on the concept that we're in the generation of the fig tree. Otherwise I right with you.Originally Posted by Windigo
Here here, amen.
Nines,
Is it your position that this (7th Trump) is when Christ returns to collect his elect? (the commonly called rapture) or is it when he returns for his 1,000 year reign
Also the Two Witnesses preach for a thousand two hundred and threescore days before being killed... roughly 3 1/2 years
The Abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the 7 years.
When as you see it do the Two Witnesses come in to play? the 1st half or the 2nd?
I've never understood the thinking of Jesus coming back to 'take' anyone. Where is he taking you? The Kingdom of God will be HERE after the 1000 years of teaching and correction..and after the final judgment. The 2nd advent, he comes back and rules. I'm not rapture believer. I don't persecute those that do...but I ain't flying anywhere. My Master is coming back HERE and I will stay in the field working until he gets here. He comes back AFTER the Antichrist deceives the bulk of the world. I will not be one of those in field taken.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Christ shortened the days for the elects sake.
The seals, trumps and vials are a bit tedious as they are not always presented in order. A seal is a command, a trump signifies the start of that command and a vial is the execution of that command.
The antichrist returns at the breaking of the 6th seal, the 6th trump sounds and the 6th vial is poured out. Let he that hath understanding count all them sixes.
The witnesses will arrive 1263.5 days before Christ returns. There will be ample warning of satan's arrival and the people won't listen. The spirit of slumber and placed delusions will certainly be in effect.
I do not have as good a grasp on this as I would like. Unfortunately, I do not know a SINGLE person in my area that can have an intelligent conversation like everyone here has been carrying on. Thank ya'll for that BTW.
Last edited by Nines&Twos; 02-28-2024 at 12:29 PM.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
Let us start with what the Good Book says about the Elect (that be us) being gathered and taken to heaven at about the midpoint of the 7 year period. After the Abomination of desolation and the Sun and Moon being darkened.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
You know there is a special blessing that comes with reading and understanding the Book of Revelation
Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Your thoughts on the above listed scriptures?
....
I don't see anything in the last two that we would disagree on.
I've never read anything that makes me think Jesus will come back and get people, then leave...then come back again. Sorry, I don't get that from any scripture I have ever read.
I will say it again to be well recorded...I hope no one thinks I attack them for believing in rapture. I'll fight along side you to protect your right to believe it. ...but I do not.
Last edited by Nines&Twos; 02-28-2024 at 05:00 PM.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
No worries... I am a thick skinned old redneck and the thought of being attacked never crossed my mind.
I really enjoy talking Revelation especially with chapter and verse type Folks.
I am curious, how you reconcile the scriptures I listed regarding being caught up in the air to meet The LORD with a non rapture type doctrine.
I have often thought about opening a thread to go chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation. It will just a lot of time to do it right.
Had to edit my post a couple times...I am technically supposed to be working...LOL.
I responded to the scriptures you listed in a different color.
Chapter by chapter thread would be AWESOME. Wouldn't have to be one at a time but how many ever it is that conveys the thought. Sometimes it's one verse that needs discussing....often it takes a few to get the subject, object and verb established.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
Pardon me for saying... but a fella would have to be pretty stubborn to read all this Scripture and still think sky doesn't mean sky and air doesn't mean air.
Also, you are correct when we die we are immediately in heaven... that is to say our spirit is. As Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD... but we do not receive a glorified body until Christ returns for us and we are changed in a twinkling of an eye.
If you read the full chapters of each listed you will notice all this takes place after the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet and directly after the Sun and moon are darkened... which happens at the midpoint of the 7 year period... post Tribulation/great-Tribulation... but pre-wrath. (The biggest mistake folks make when studying end times is that they think the whole 7 years is God pouring out his Wrath, but that simply is not true and is easily proved with just a tad of study)
The LORD returning on a white horse with his Elect happens at the 7th trumpet and after God has poured out his wrath, and after the 2 Witnesses have been killed... at the end of the 7 year period.
When reading Revelation, a special effort on understanding the chronology of events is never a wasted effort.
You're right, timelines are very important......and it won't be 7 years long. We can thank Yeshua for that.
How is it Jesus never mentioned flying people away? ...The purpose of the elect is to witness before the antichrist. It is the destiny of the elect to be delivered up to him. It's why the elect are warned NOT to premeditate what they'll say. It'll be the Holy Spirit speaking in the cloven tongue that all can understand speaking through them. Quite an honor to be chosen for that.
Those scriptures all say we will SEE him coming in the clouds....OK, how does that mean you're flying away? ...The dead in Christ SHALL rise 1st....they already have. ....People hang on to 1 Thesselonians but refuse to get the subject of the message from earlier in the chapter. Where did Jesus ever tell us he will fly us away? The Father even says he's against the idea of people teaching his children to fly to save their souls in Ezekiel.
Why would he fly people away? The inevitable location of the Kingdom is right here. New Jerusalem will be 1500 cubic miles (roughly)
What is the purpose of leaving only to come right back?
1st advent...he came, he preached, he died, he resurrected
2nd advent...he comes to set things right...teach, discipline and correct.
I just don't get this advent 1.5
I spent the 1st half of my life hearing this over and over and over.....Between that, jumping over the pews and babbling unintelligible things ....I left.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
Rapture or no rapture....makes zero difference in how our Father makes use of us. Makes zero difference in being a part of His kingdom. It will NOT be the deciding factor in Judgment.
I don't believe The Father will say Well, you didn't believe in rapture...lake of fire you!
The 14th chapter or Romans says Let every man be persuaded in his own mind. ...Who am I to judge another man's servant? I think we're all confident that our Father is capable of managing his own servants.
I mentioned it before and I'm doubling down on it for a few reasons. One, I'm currently in the book of Romans this week and Two, I've been in a place where arguments polarize people and take the minds and hearts away from the work we're supposed to be doing. I'd hate to know I perpetuated a problem I once suffered from. We don't know who might read this and how they may interpret what they're reading. A body whose feet won't cooperate with it's hands will NEVER get his chores done.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
It seems that you have your mind made up about it... so I will let it lay so as not to turn from an edifying type discussion to that of bickering.
While I personally cannot find cause for thinking there will be a LaHaye-esque mass disappearance of Christians prior to the onset of the tribulations I pay attention to the thoughts of those so much more learned than myself who have long taught the theory, learning much about the word and about people, just as I learn from those who haven't espoused the theory. Some of my favorites, the very best and most enjoyable teachers I ever saw, were dyed in the wool pretribbers even though I differed with them in that particular area.
It does sound that way....funny (not) thing...I've had my mind made up about a several of things in the last few years that have turned on a dime. Most of them came when I started talking to our Father instead of ignoring him (or worse). It's amazing when I look back at the things I used to know.....all the wasted time. What a fool. Makes you wonder why he bothers with some of us....I try not to ponder that one too much.
...ok, how about another difficult topic people are divided about? "Eternal" torment or no? The word says for ever and ever but there are scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise...as well as an acrostic in Psalms.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
Sounds pretty permanent and eternal to me... "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" YupIt does sound that way....funny (not) thing...I've had my mind made up about a several of things in the last few years that have turned on a dime. Most of them came when I started talking to our Father instead of ignoring him (or worse). It's amazing when I look back at the things I used to know.....all the wasted time. What a fool. Makes you wonder why he bothers with some of us....I try not to ponder that one too much.
...ok, how about another difficult topic people are divided about? "Eternal" torment or no? The word says for ever and ever but there are scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise...as well as an acrostic in Psalms.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 12:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
It certainly does. This one is a tough pill to swallow.
There was a time when i was younger, I wouldn't argue it...I find I have little more compassion for people than i thought possible.
First off...we know everyone that goes in the lake of fire is blotted out of the book of life. There could be something to that blotting out. It would have to involve those that overcome as well. How will you be able to enjoy ...or even endure an eternity if your old neighbor who was a pretty good ole fella but never believed on Christ.....is over there sizzling like greasy meat in a cast iron skillet?
One must be careful not to question our Father here....but...that neighbor has to endure what some mass murdering sicko has to suffer?
Revelation 20:10 seems cut and dry....but who is it addressing? All who those who go in the fire or just Lucifer and his failed regime?
There's also an acrostic in Psalms that refers to the wicked being like fat on a spit..when it hits the fire...it sizzles, turns to smoke and goes up into the air forever. Acrostics are difficult for people with zero linguistic education (me) to really put much into.
Wisdom says just skip the fire altogether and that's my plan but all of God's word is to be studied and understood if possible. Our education never ends until we shed this meat suit. This subject has certainly been wrenched on by some religions I won't name and fictitious works like Dante.
I've had another thought but it's a bit ..fringe maybe? Bordering on absurd. In the beginning there was God, The word and wisdom. He spoke and nothing became SOMETHING. (That's what atheistic science can't wrap their feeble noodle around) .....God is a consuming fire. It's no step for him to speak again and something becomes NOTHING. See where I'm going?....just a thought...one I should probably leave alone.
He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make thy loins strong, fortify thy power mightily. Nahum 2:1
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