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Thread: "Did Jesus Rise from the Grave?"

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Scholarly history is based on recorded eyewitness testimony backed up by physical evidence. The authors of historical books don't have to have witnessed the events if they can cite records of the actual eye witnesses. Do you understand how scholarly history books are written? The bibles are the recording of oral traditions with no references to recorded eyewitness testimony. They are stories passed verbally from one person to the next sometimes over a period of centuries before they were recorded in the bible. The New Testament stories were recorded by authors who did not witness the events and maybe did not actually talk to the witnesses. Some of them were not even written by the suggested authors.

    The Bibles are not scholarly history books. They are more accurately referred to as Legends.

    legend
    1a: a story coming down from the past
    especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable.

    Legends often suffer from a bit of embellishment.

    Why do you think that Jesus rising from the grave means Jesus is God? After all his mother did not even die, she was taken up to heaven, living body and soul at the end of her life.

    Several scriptural passages have been theologically interpreted to describe the ultimate fate in this and the afterworld of the Mother of Jesus. Various apocryphal documents do contain narrations of the Assumption of Mary.

    Tim
    Munch on this...https://truthfaithandreason.com/a-ca...n-apologetics/

    I guess my question is, in the grand scheme of things, why on earth would someone have any doubt about a "book", that is not advertised on TV, endorsed by the media, not forced down peoples throats, but is free to read and/or believe by anyone and just sits there in the bookstore waiting to be purchased. In addition, the Bible has a certain degree of complexity and is not easily perceived by your average reader. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that are relevant to events in the New Testament.

    I know one thing, if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, the kind of belief you would gain after the fact is not the kind of belief necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven!

    https://www.truthortradition.com/art...t-on-the-cross
    The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
    Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Much of the bible is certainly hearsay. The authors are repeating stories they heard and did not witness first hand.

    Tim
    Gee whiz, Tim! Many of the stories and parables you refer to were written down by those who DID see and hear what transpired, and then were copied in perpetuity by people who are humble enough to want and need to know about these writings. Your denials are very obviously based on your inner desire to DENY their truth. So be it. But your one-man religion will NOT stand you in good stead, I don't believe, at the Throne of Judgment, and I believe it's because of your haughty desire to DENY their Truth. God help you.

  3. #43
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    I believe that Christ suffered himself to be scourged and put to death, and that He then rose from the dead, and sits in Heaven to this day. He HAD to rise from the dead. No other leader of any other religion has ever risen from the dead. Only Christ, and THAT is what separates Him from all the other central figures of all other religions. If the son of the living God couldn't arise from the grave, from dead to the living, how could he legitimately claim to be a real god???? God sent all manner of prophets and miracles and wonders, and yet, people STILL would not believe and submit. What else was left but to SHOW us the real power of a legitimate and living God? God did NOT create us and the world we live in just to see us blown away like dust in the wind. He LOVES us, and wants us to thrive and be happy. He left a very large book full of advice and direction that, if we simply follow, will lead us to joys and pleasures and satisfactions beyond our wildest dreams and aspirations. If only we'll humbly submit and follow.

    Sometimes I wonder if we don't read the Bible just looking for something to argue about. But that's not why God gave it to us. It's the key to unlocking all that we want and need to know - all that the human mind needs to overcome our more "natural" tendencies to go or drift slowly astray. Would that we simply used it this way - as a personal key to unlocking the answers to the questions that naturally arise. But faith and trust are part of the process, too. Without faith and trust, nothing is elucidated, and never will be. Those who have no faith or trust, and who rely ONLY on their own sensibilitiess, will never "see" all that's in there.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master


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    I believe he did rise from the Grave. That's my opinion your mileage may very.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselhorses View Post
    Munch on this...https://truthfaithandreason.com/a-ca...n-apologetics/

    I guess my question is, in the grand scheme of things, why on earth would someone have any doubt about a "book", that is not advertised on TV, endorsed by the media, not forced down peoples throats, but is free to read and/or believe by anyone and just sits there in the bookstore waiting to be purchased. In addition, the Bible has a certain degree of complexity and is not easily perceived by your average reader. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that are relevant to events in the New Testament.

    I know one thing, if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, the kind of belief you would gain after the fact is not the kind of belief necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven!

    https://www.truthortradition.com/art...t-on-the-cross
    The Bible is the most advertised and promoted book ever written. There are even versions written specifically to indoctrinate pre-school children. Are you kidding me when you say the Bible is not advertised on TV? It certainly is endorsed by the Media. It is endorsed by the Christian Media. More free copies of the Bible are distributed than any other book except maybe the Quran.

    if a person had endless documents, proven historical eye witness accounts and all the concrete proof in the world, you would have belief based on reason and not based on faith. Why should you have to believe in something not proven to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? It is hard enough to get people to believe what has been proved. It seems it is easier to get people to believe in lies they want to hear than the truth they don't want to hear.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  6. #46
    Boolit Master Ozark mike's Avatar
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    I usually try not to get involved in these debates I think people are focused on the wrong thing he came to teach men and lead by example show us the wrong of our ways yet people argue about whether he was the son of god and if the miracles he preformed really happend where did we go wrong
    Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Gee whiz, Tim! Many of the stories and parables you refer to were written down by those who DID see and hear what transpired, and then were copied in perpetuity by people who are humble enough to want and need to know about these writings. Your denials are very obviously based on your inner desire to DENY their truth. So be it. But your one-man religion will NOT stand you in good stead, I don't believe, at the Throne of Judgment, and I believe it's because of your haughty desire to DENY their Truth. God help you.
    I do not have a one man religion. I just believe what I believe, that is not a religion.

    Name more than a couple bible stories or parables written by the eyewitnesses. Name the eyewitnesses and then produce a reference to the document produced by their own hand.

    I will make it even easier. Produce a reference to a document of a bible story written by someone who claims to be an eyewitness. It is clear that none of the Apostles or Authors of the New Testament were eyewitnesses to either Jesus' crucifixion or his reresection. None of the Authors claim to be eyewitnesses. I do think it is likely that Jesus was crucified but still no eyewitness record.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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    Did they ever get a positive I.D. on this Jesus fellow? How can we be sure its him and not an alien overlord when he comes back as predicted? Will they allow him to vote?
    The cosmos is incomprehensibly vast...what are the odds were the only planet in the whole of the universe privileged enough to rate a messiah? What if our planet is already doomed to destruction and none of its biological life forms are responsible for the outcome? What if faith is ignorance wrapped in bliss?
    Only the dead know for sure.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangitgriff View Post
    Did they ever get a positive I.D. on this Jesus fellow? How can we be sure it’s him and not an alien overlord when he comes back as predicted? Will they allow him to vote?
    The cosmos is incomprehensibly vast...what are the odds we’re the only planet in the whole of the universe privileged enough to rate a messiah? What if our planet is already doomed to destruction and none of its biological life forms are responsible for the outcome? What if faith is ignorance wrapped in bliss?
    Only the dead know for sure.
    It might be a bad thing to educate the ignorant who are living in bliss unless they are doing harm.

    Only those who have achieved life after death know for sure, the rest of the dead know nothing. Then there is the possibility that everyone has a life after death, just some have a nicer life than others.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    ... Then there is the possibility that everyone has a life after death, just some have a nicer life than others.
    That's much more than a possibility, it's a certainty.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    That's much more than a possibility, it's a certainty.
    You know this how?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You know this how?

    Tim
    We know though Faith. Man would not give eternal life without getting something in return because of his greed. Your there on the Gulf next Hurricane comes take the boat out in it. It's an awesome experience and It will show you the wonder of God's Power. But the best thing about it is that Everything is going to be Alright no matter what happens because your saved..

  13. #53
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    Tim, I rarely wrestle pigs in their own mud, the pigs enjoy it and it just gets me muddy without accomplishing anything good.

    Our job is to tell others of Jesus, not to beat truth into other's heads; we've done that so our obligation before God has been fulfilled so your blood is not on our hands.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    We know though Faith. Man would not give eternal life without getting something in return because of his greed. Your there on the Gulf next Hurricane comes take the boat out in it. It's an awesome experience and It will show you the wonder of God's Power. But the best thing about it is that Everything is going to be Alright no matter what happens because your saved..
    Have you ever taken a boat out into a hurricane, I mean really into the hurricane?

    I am not an athiest. Their is God, the creator of all that is. I don't need to be shown anything more about God's power, I believe God created everything that is? That is not faith, that is reason, it could be no other way. I don't know how God did it, it was probably sort of like what is written in the Bible but that does not explain much.

    My first Hurricane was was Ginny in 1963 we lost power and the streets flooded. The next was David in 1979 again lost power and had many trees down. I have ridden out or evacuated for at least a dozen hurricanes since then including Katrina where I could not get back to the house for two weeks, when I got back a tree was down through the roof and ceiling of the master bedroom. I slept in a spare room while I (with the help of contractors) repaired the house so my wife could move back home.

    Hurricanes are nothing compared to Krakatoa or Mt. St. Helens or a Super Nova. What God can't do can't be done. Often it is hard to understand what God won't do. Those are the things books like the Bible are written about to ease human minds.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Tim, I rarely wrestle pigs in their own mud, the pigs enjoy it and it just gets me muddy without accomplishing anything good.

    Our job is to tell others of Jesus, not to beat truth into other's heads; we've done that so our obligation before God has been fulfilled so your blood is not on our hands.
    I expect you are sure you are right. Be careful what you preach as you may as yet have blood on your hands. Nobody is more mistaken than when they are absolutely sure they know something especially when they take it on faith.

    If you are arguing to convert me you are missing the whole point of this discussion or at least my point. I am preaching to the whole forum that they need to practice what Jesus taught not count on just believing in Jesus as a path to salvation. Jesus death and resurrection don't matter what is important is Jesus message to love your neighbor.

    There are the greedy, prideful, selfish, hateful people who need to hear the message and not just think they will go to heaven if they believe Jesus is a risen God.

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 08-16-2020 at 02:55 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    ...I am preaching to the whole forum that they need to practice what Jesus taught not count on just believing in Jesus as a path to salvation. Jesus death and resurrection don't matter what is important is Jesus message to love your neighbor.

    There are the greedy, prideful, selfish, hateful people who need to hear the message and not just think they will go to heaven if they believe Jesus is a risen God.
    Jesus death and resurrection certainly does matter but, for the rest of it, no one has said otherwise.

    What has been repeatedly explained back to you is that Biblical "belief" is NOT just a head consent to "believe" in Jesus (which is all you're doing). Biblical belief includes the ideas of personally following, clinging to and trusting in the one who is believed; then the good works you are hung up on will follow, then your good works would be atribitual to Him, not yourself. Your error is that you effectively put the cart before the horse by seeking to be a "worthy" Christian BECAUSE of your good works; that's self righteousness and it fails, everytime. Thing you're ignoring in this is that God measures the heart, not the list of good things you did last week while trying to be sufficently self righteous to be saved.

    Bottom line, good works are good accomplishments so far as that goes but none of us can put God into debt to us because we think we've probably done enough good works to be owed His salvation.

    Right now you're spiritually blinded, adrift in rocky waters without anchor, paddle or compass and there be many monsters there.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Have you ever taken a boat out into a hurricane, I mean really into the hurricane?

    I am not an athiest. Their is God, the creator of all that is. I don't need to be shown anything more about God's power, I believe God created everything that is? That is not faith, that is reason, it could be no other way. I don't know how God did it, it was probably sort of like what is written in the Bible but that does not explain much.

    My first Hurricane was was Ginny in 1963 we lost power and the streets flooded. The next was David in 1979 again lost power and had many trees down. I have ridden out or evacuated for at least a dozen hurricanes since then including Katrina where I could not get back to the house for two weeks, when I got back a tree was down through the roof and ceiling of the master bedroom. I slept in a spare room while I (with the help of contractors) repaired the house so my wife could move back home.

    Hurricanes are nothing compared to Krakatoa or Mt. St. Helens or a Super Nova. What God can't do can't be done. Often it is hard to understand what God won't do. Those are the things books like the Bible are written about to ease human minds.

    Tim

    I have covered the whole Gulf of Mexico from west Key West back to West Key West. Did it Three times trying to outrun Hurricanes. Also the Atlantic. North Sea, Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea, Indiana Ocean, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Rode out the Perfect Storm in the Atlantic in 1991 (plus many other can't remember all the names) also that year was in a Mediterranean Hurricane they are few and very bad. The great thing we had a load of new Christian on those real bad nights.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    I have covered the whole Gulf of Mexico from west Key West back to West Key West. Did it Three times trying to outrun Hurricanes. Also the Atlantic. North Sea, Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea, Indiana Ocean, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Rode out the Perfect Storm in the Atlantic in 1991 (plus many other can't remember all the names) also that year was in a Mediterranean Hurricane they are few and very bad. The great thing we had a load of new Christian on those real bad nights.
    So you did not take a boat out into a hurricane, you did your best to avoid hurricanes in a ship or at least a yacht not in a boat.


    A boat is a watercraft of a large range of types and sizes, but generally smaller than a ship, which is distinguished by its larger size, shape, cargo or passenger cap…

    My skipper father in law claimed over 28 ft. a water craft is a yacht I have seen other places that the line is at 33 ft. either way anything that size or bigger is not a boat. It could be you were in something smaller but it would be hard to understand how something smaller could have that kind of range with a load of new Christians.

    If I was in that kind of danger I might pray to God to save me but that would not make me a Christian.

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 08-16-2020 at 05:40 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    There is no witness recorded evidence only hearsay.
    The Gospels of Matthew and John were both written by eyewitnesses. I can't prove this you. But I doubt anything would be sufficient for you anyway.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The Gospels of Matthew and John were both written by eyewitnesses. I can't prove this you. But I doubt anything would be sufficient for you anyway.
    Who are the eyewitness authors of those Gospels, Matthew and John were both with the other apostles hiding. It was the women who went to Jesus on the cross and it was the women who went to the tomb to find it empty. If you are talking about Jesus coming to the apostles after he was risen, yes that part could be eyewitness accounts, you know the Thomas thing and such. Regarding the Thomas thing. Will Jesus have the scars of his crucifixion forever?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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