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Thread: The death penalty

  1. #81
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    As a general principal, I am again the DP, but not on any moral or religious grounds. I know the Criminal Justice system and know it is very fallible. To fallible to be entrusted with a life or death decision. But, I do make exceptions, for there are some really bad people that just need killing.

    Our legal system makes implementing the DP a very long and expensive process. I would favor 30 days for an expedited appeal and if denied, one pistol shot in the back of the head should do the trick. The Russians don't do everything wrong.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 08-30-2021 at 04:52 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #82
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    I can’t say I’m for it for all murder cases, but there are some, that without a doubt, it’s the right and moral thing to do.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by downzero View Post
    I'm glad my opinion is shared. I see nothing wrong with the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime, but if it isn't cost effective, those resources would be better used locking these people up for life without the possibility of any kind of release and taking the additional, otherwise wasted resources, and spending that to reduce crime (whether that means more cops, longer sentences, better rehabilitation, etc., any of that is superior to wasting it on a broken death penalty system).

    As to whether a Christian would be committing murder by voting to execute an innocent person, the answer is no. Mens rea, the concept of the guilty mind, is a cornerstone of the criminal justice system for a reason. That's why a manslaughter is punishable by 6 years in my state and a murder could be a life sentence. Making a mistake that costs someone else their life is not "murder." Murder is the unjust taking of human life by another human being with malice aforethought. Anything less than that is not murder.



    If that was the case, there would be virtually no convictions for murder, ever. Most murder cases are one scumbag killing another one. Some are domestic violence. A tiny, tiny minority are the kind of truly innocent people like little girls who are kidnapped/raped etc.

    There is no criminal case where you can be 100% positive that the person is guilty. Crimes happen in real life with real people who are flawed, and it is those people who give testimony in court. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" or "beyond all possible doubt," is simply not realistically possible. So if you can't support a death sentence in the real world with a beyond a reasonable doubt standard, what you're really saying is that you aren't for the death penalty at all. Which is actually fine, everyone is entitled to decide these issues for themselves. But in a real courtroom, with real people, 100% positive does not exist. Cases are proven primarily through eyewitnesses, which are flawed human beings just like the accused.
    You need to actually study cases that have happened.

    A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

    A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

    A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.

  4. #84
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunkTheory View Post
    You need to actually study cases that have happened.

    A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

    A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

    A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.
    Such cases can't be treated as short shocking headlines. Watch the trial, or read a transcript and such silly summaries will quickly prove bogus. Things are far, far, more complex that your posts.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BunkTheory View Post
    You need to actually study cases that have happened.

    A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

    A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

    A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.
    I need to "study" cases that actually happen? Sir I make cases actually happen; this is my life's work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Such cases can't be treated as short shocking headlines. Watch the trial, or read a transcript and such silly summaries will quickly prove bogus. Things are far, far, more complex that your posts.
    Exactly.

    Jury trials sometimes produce bizarre and sometimes indefensible results, but we decided a long time ago that even that was superior to all of its alternatives.

  6. #86
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    Soft hearted touchy-feely illusions aside, executions for cause are NOT "murder".

    The Commandant translated, "Thou shall not kill" is a poor translation of the message. It should read, "You shall not murder". There's a vast difference between those acts and their meanings.

    People who commit capital crimes forfeit their right to live, period. Therefore, state sanctioned executioners are not murderers.

  7. #87
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    After being a correctional officer for 20 years and reading the files on several of the really bad ones, I'm sure in my mind that some are bad enough they need to be executed. Butcher Baker should have been executed rather than wasting the state a lot of money. He took prostitutes to his home, tortured them then took them for a plane ride and turned them loose naked in the woods and hunted them down and shot them with a bow. IIRC he toll was 21 women and he took the police to where he had buried 17. I have trouble with those that think he should have spent many years in prison at about $32,000 a year to keep him alive. There is another one that is even worse that is still alive in prison that started with a sentence of 435 years but I will refrain from telling his crime. AK has no death penalty so they spend a lot of money keeping violent criminals alive and complain about the cost of keeping them alive.
    There are the Hitlers and the Mansons in the world that should not be here.

  8. #88
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    Basically I am against the Death Penalty because it is possible a innocent Person gets "hung" and also it has been used throughout History to silence Opposition.
    However, if there is irrefutable solid Evidence that the accused is Guilty of a Murderous Crime then I would agree to the Death Penalty which should be carried out immediately after one appeal failed to overturn it.

    Cheers

  9. #89
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    Matthew (5:38-42) in the New Testament, Jesus repudiates even that notion. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    Matthew (5:38-42) "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    That's misunderstood and wrongly applied scripture. It means God is a judge of justice, not hateful revenge, so no legal penalty could rightly exceed the wrongs that were done. Thus, Jesus was simply saying the penalty should match the crime. If that were not correct then all of God's O.T. Laws mandating death by stoning for certain sins would have been sinful and that certainly isn't so.

    But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    That is a guideline for personal slights and indignities, it doesn't mean a Christian is expected to endure any physical harm at all to himself or others who need defending. Consider that Jesus' admonition to his disciples to acquire a sword if they didn't have one wasn't because swords looked good on their belts.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Take religion out of the question. Religious beliefs have no place in our criminal justice system.
    Not at all true. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

    Rights are God-given. Some folks make poor choices, and sometimes they must be prevented from infringing the rights of others. We have a justice system based on religion, as our Declaration and Constitution are based on religion. If there is no religion, there is no basis for anything but anarchy. The Government has those "just powers" because we empower them to do so. IMHO, that system isn't working so well, but that is why it exists.

  12. #92
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    I am a former parole officer and have written and read quite a few stories of the offenses committed, how they were done any pertinent damning or extenuating circumstances known, or believed to be operating at the time of the crime. Other pertinent details are much of the evidence both pro and against the subject. These investigations are often used by parole boards to decide whether or not to grant parole. Anyone who's spent much time in and around the courts surely can't place a whole lot of faith in our system today. Sometimes, things go beautifully, and made me proud. Other times ........ well, ley's just say 'Not so much.'

    All of us want a perfect system. We show no promise of ever attaining that. People just seem to get inurred and bored. and let things slide that they maybe shouldn't.

    As long as we're sentient and get tired by long prodeedings, we're going to have a faulty system, but in its defense, i'm generally surprised it does as well as it does.

    Until we come up with something better. I'm at least relatively satisfied that very very few are put to death in error. I know it does happen but I can't bring an instance to mind. And legal execution is in no way akin to murder, but those who just like to argue don't really care about such things. They just want to argue.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    . And legal execution is in no way akin to murder, but those who just like to argue don't really care about such things. They just want to argue.
    And that would be the understatement of the year.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  14. #94
    Boolit Master armoredman's Avatar
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    Anyone here worked Death Row? I have, as a CO and as an LT. I've seen the walking skin suits down there, nothing human inside. Are there wrongfully convicted people on Death Roiw? Could be, which is why we do all the appeals. Arizona HAS streamlined the process somewhat, so inmates sentenced in the last 10-15 years will not be spending 50 years on Death Row.
    I have a few things for the life in prison adherents - you gonna pay for it? Will you pony up the tax dollars to keep an inmate in prison for the rest of his natural life? That's the bare beginning, because now we move on to what prison is really for.
    1) - Punishment. Separation from all others, loss of normal sex, a very artificial world with artificial rules and penalties for non compliance. This is meant to correct behavior. Does it work? I don't know about your state, but our prison population has been steadily dropping over the last 5 years, with no California style "prison reform" just just let the thugs out. We also remind them at the gate that Oregon has basically decriminalized all hard drugs. Might also be helping...BUT...life in prison means punishment without end. Does that fall under the 8th Amendment or cruel and unusual punishment? Wait for the ALU to jump n there with both feet someday.
    2) Rehabilitation. Seriously. We program the bejeepers out of these guys from walk in to walk out. We have programs for EVERYTHING, from Cage Your Rage to our excellent Wildland Firefighting Crew. We will do whatever we can to get their mindset where it should be, because 96% of ALL inmates are eventually released. But if we tell a man we cannot rehabilitate you, we have failed again. Can we reach everyone - not a chance. I have seen inmates stab each other with pens during classes, slash throats with chicken bones, and spray blood 1/4 inch deep in a bathroom trying to end it all. He lived, BTW. BUT, we have to try - they are in our care and custody and we have a statutory obligation to try to correct the behavior, hence the name. Actually, we changed our name recently, as we are now The Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation and Reentry. Is it working? Refer to the numbers above...or, even better, look at the real numbers. Here's a sneak peek into real prisons. The reports roll with time, so 2018 is as far back as I can go now.
    https://corrections.az.gov/sites/def...8/cagfeb18.pdf
    That was a total population of 41,681.

    Last one updated was August of this year;
    https://corrections.az.gov/sites/def.../cagaug-21.pdf
    Total population - 35,489.

    Now, on to that OTHER 800 pound gorilla in the room about lifers - what to DO with them? Would you like to know that there are inmates doing natural life on medium custody yards? Read about the escape from Kingman, and the lifers that got out. Two elderly people would be ALIVE today if they had been in lockdown or on Death Row, but instead they were murdered and burned inside their own camper. Check out the stories of how many times inmates doing life without parole have escaped, and what they did on the outside. When you have nothing left to lose, it's easy. Oddly enough, that does NOT follow with Death Row. Their privileges are all they have left, so they actually tend to be easier to manage. A lot of the lifers, the ones who decided they have nothing to lose are the worst to manage, and they regularly attack us and each other. Sometimes it's all to get a hospital trip in order to try to escape - we had one shot doing exactly that a few years ago. Yes, Virginia, the weapons are real and have real bullets in them - you'd be surprised what stupid things people in the hospital will say.
    How many murderers GET the death penalty? Damn few - as of August we had 3,953 in prison for murder/manslaughter/non-negligent homicide. Death Row? 114. That's it. Three of those are women.

    So, too long/didn't read - life in prison is effective in only doing one thing - warehousing inmates. Period. If that's what people want, we'll do it but be prepared to PAY for it - tell your elected officials that you want more money for prison construction/maintenance/staff salaries. As the old saying goes, put the money where the mouth is. Not trying to be a jerk, but I have heard this for almost 20 years now. Also, be prepared for the civil cost when they escape. Not IF, when. Any system devised by man can be defeated by man, and I have seen some VERY clever inmates over the years - ever seen a Maalox bottle turned into a bomb?
    Last - the Christian angle - did not The Lord say that vengeance is his? We are still given justice. Jesus said he was not going to change the Law? Doesn't the Talmud say more times than once to kill a man if he is trying to kill you? Bet there's some lines about executions. Don't forget the translations that screw up the Aramaic word for "murder" and replace it with "kill". A justified execution is not murder.
    There is an old Leftist bumper sticker that reads, "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" This one should be added right next to it - "We execute people who kill people so they may never kill again." I support the death penalty with a clear conscience, and if I am wrong, My Lord will show me the error of mine ways, but with what I know, I do not believe I am wrong. I also support the effort it takes to GET that conviction AND the appeals process, for the taking of a human life is no light thing, and should be handled as carefully as possible, and as clearly as possible, but once the process has completed, justice should be swift and final.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master armoredman's Avatar
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    I almost forgot - did I read an allegation that Death Row is primarily aimed at blacks?
    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles
    It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.
    Arizona Death Row ethnic breakdown - Asian - 3, Black - 18, Caucasian - 63, Mexican-American - 23, Native American, (Amerind) - 5, and Other - 2. Doesn't look like that out here.

    https://corrections.az.gov/public-resources/death-row
    Last edited by armoredman; 10-04-2021 at 10:40 PM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by armoredman View Post
    ...life in prison means punishment without end. Does that fall under the 8th Amendment or cruel and unusual punishment? Wait for the ALU to jump n there with both feet someday.
    For "liberal" lunatics such as the ACLU, punishments are "cruel" by definition and serious punishment for truly bad stuff is so seldom applied it qualifies as "unusual"; thus they usually see all legal punishments as unconstitutional.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master armoredman's Avatar
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    I know - I see the ACLU quite often around here - they give other lawyers a bad name. That speculation was mentioned to raise the idea, NOT to invite the bloodsuckers within 200 miles of the place.

  18. #98
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    Regardless of how many murderers are executed, people will continue to murder. An Execution will stop someone from murdering again.
    Some crimes are just plain inhuman, to commit such crimes a person has to be evil beyond measure. It’s not for us to forgive evil. That’s up to God alone, when they stand before Him to be judged. Convicted criminals have plenty of time on death row to ask His forgiveness. That’s all the earthly time they need and more than they allowed their victims.
    Someone guilty beyond all doubt of a horrendous crime deserves execution if for no other reason than society will fall apart if they are given a pass. Corporal punishment is a real deterrent to lesser crimes, and should also be part of the penal system.

  19. #99
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    There are people that are so evil and committed crimes that cannot be ever forgiven. They will always be evil and the world would be a better place if they never existed. The death penalty makes the world a safer, better place by eliminating their existence.

  20. #100
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    I'm a Christian who is often puzzled by non-Christians who sneer at Christians who accept that there is nothing automatically un-Christian about the death penalty for human trash who commit capital crimes; it's not about trying to "teach them a lesson," it's about us cleaning the gene pool. There is no moral or scriptural reason for the public to house, clothe, feed and medicate fiends who have forever forfeit their original God given right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

    Those who piously wring their hands at the thought of executions and whine that men aren't supposed to "judge" others to death are idiots. Fact is, God judges spiritual things but we are told to judge ourselves by the life fruit we bear. When our life shows that we deserve death (i.e., "a life for a life") that's exactly what we should get ... and reasonably quickly.

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