Tell me about molds (Molds 101)

[jerrold]

Well, I have read most all I find on paper patch, finding little on molds. I want to try paper patch in my 45-90 Predisoli 1874 Sharps target with MVA long range sights.
To start the thread I see a two cavity Lee on E-bay that seems to be what I need , but I am not a great fan of Lee and definitely not two cavity.
Saw one adjustable custom made on this site that seems to be the cats meow.
My question is What mod would suit my needs?
Other insight on molds will be appreciated.

[R. Dupraz]

jerrold:

Well, there are two methods of shooting PP. One, is when the bullets are patched to groove and the other is patched to bore size. I have not patched to groove however I regularly shoot bore size PP in my 45x2.4 Shioh with black powder. One advantage with bore size PP is that one can shove that bullet up into the bore a lot further which I believe enhances bullet alignment and accuracy. This method also eliminates the variable of seating depth.

The mold I have is a .442" diameter 535 gr. Buffalo Arms Co. single cavity and the paper is their 100% cotton. The bullets with two wraps end up at .450" or the exact size of the bore on my Shiloh and are seated in the case just enough to hold them.

Don't know it one could do this with smokeless or not cause I use only black powder in the rifle.

The BAC molds are a fine piece of work and are about as resonable a PP bore size mold anywhere. The above combination shoots very well to the tune of within a couple of minutes out to 900+ yds.

Which ever way that you decide to go, you need to know the exact groove or bore size of your rifle so that you can patch to that diameter.

Regards
RD

[EDK]

Get Randolph Wright's book LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNERS GUIDE...if you don't already have it. It will save you from having to "re-invent the wheel." Lots of drawings and pictures and information on black powder loading...a real good source of information. (Available at Shiloh Rifle Co.) Orville Loomer has a booklet full of good information there too.

BUY some bullets from Buffalo Arms, Montana Precision Swaging, etc in the length and weight you think you want. Prepare your loads, shoot them and then decide if you're going to stick with it.

NOW you can make some educated choices. Mine would be to get Red River Rick's brochure for his excellent adjustable moulds...and get his package of mould, handles and template to cut the paper patches. (KAL TOOL & DIE 204-885-5751, Winnipeg, Manitoba, CANADA: PM here) Steve Brooks makes excellent moulds. Pioneer Products too. Off the shelf and non-adjustable moulds from Buffalo Arms...their own designs and RCBS.

I need to get busy with the Kalynuik mould...just been loading and shooting the pistols...the BIG 50 is feeling neglected.



PS I forgot to check where you're from. I drive from St Louis MO to the Quigley shoot every year (1400+ miles) The Q is THE BLACK POWDER RIFLE SHOOT....not many big names in the sport, but there were 600+ shooters in 2008. Lots of paper patch shooters and people willing to share information if you ask. Orville Loomer has re-created a lot of Orignal Style SHARPS loading equipment and designed some of his own...he likes to show his toys and explain their functions...I will have a camera and a note book this year! AND drive about 200 miles west and you're in Big Timber and both SHARPS factories!

[Don McDowell]

Buffalo Arms offers a good selection of molds and patching supplies.
You can order paper patched bullets from Montana Bullet Works and give them a try before dropping the 100 and some dollars for the blocks.
Brooks molds also offers a good selection of paper patch molds.

[badgeredd]

I've been thinking about trying PP and I believe I will get a mold from RedRiverRick when I make the plunge. Still trying to get enough info to feel like I may be successful. Now that this book has been mentioned I'll see if I can find it (LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNERS GUIDE). My caliber of choice will be 35 and maybe the 40-65 too. I'm in the process of building a 8x60 (aka 8x57 modified per Larry Gibson's ideas)specifically for PP and cast boolit shooting.

[jerrold]

Well now,
This didn't go where I had hoped.
Was looking for some prows and cons regarding bullets and wrap in relation to bore dia. I have a .450 bore. Do I want a .440 or .442 as cast bullets for 25% cotton/ onion skin patch???? I have shot some of the ready made ( they patched some, and I patched some.) Really mixed results, from 1.5 to 6 in. at 100 yds . Probably averaged 4 in. + over 100 rounds three at a time. Felt like this was a waste of time and powder, but was not deterred from my goal to shoot constant 1.5 to 2.5 in. groups at a 100 yd. that I can do with grease groove bullets and black out of this gun if I do my part.
To clarify some points
1874 Sharps target by Pedersoli in 45/90
Gorex BP NO SMOKELESS.
Use grease cookies .300 on top of a .030 wad for the patched rounds
One wipe after each shot, patched or straight
The only variable in the load of the patched was the wt. and compression of the powder. 50 they patched,50 i patched, all the same bullet.
I think I have decided on the adjustable mold from Red River Rick, will talk to him about size.
Those who replied, thanks for the input. Especially the reference for the adjustable mold.

[montana_charlie]

Well now,
This didn't go where I had hoped.
Was looking for some prows and cons regarding bullets and wrap in relation to bore dia. I have a .450 bore. Do I want a .440 or .442 as cast bullets for 25% cotton/ onion skin patch????

The discussion didn't go where you wanted because you didn't guide it in that direction.

You did not state whether you want to patch to bore diameter...or to groove diameter. The naked bullet will be of different diameter, depending on what you want for finished size.

If you think you want a naked diameter of ~.440" you will certainly be 'patching to bore'...but you might have trouble wrapping enough paper on to get it up to .450". (Depends on what you plan to use for patching.)

Your Pedersoli has a .460" freebore that is about .235" long. Knowing that might make you think that 'patching to groove' could be a better choice. It is at least something to consider.

As we speak, I am cogitating on that same question...

Did you ever measure the diameters of the bullets you already tried?

CM

[docone31]

Here is what I would do.
As you said, you had mixed results.
What is the dia of the ogive? When I size and patch, I make my nose to bore dia.
I am referring to my .303 British, which I must admit, is a tack driver with paper.
My bore is .304, and my ogive is .304. Not too bad.
My mold drops at .312, I size for paper to .308. Two wraps of notebook paper, gives me .317. I size this to .314. Does a great job.
With your rifle, you already have some castings that got results, albiet random ones. You probabley have the bore dia. ok. It is the groove dia., that is the issue.
I might size to nose dia, plus .004 for wrapping dia.
In other words, my bore is .312 on my Enfield, I size to .314. I size my prime casting to .308. Two wraps of .002 each, and I get .314. Wet, it is larger, and dry, it is larger, but sizing with paper is no issue to me. I was suprised it worked that well.
You do have to slug the barrel, or you will waste a lot of powder like I did. That will tell you a lot.
I paper patch smokeless, and smokefull might be a little different. I do see what you are trying to accomplish.
I hope that helps. My notebook paper with two wraps was perfect. It sized real well.
I might consider getting a sizing die. 25# Onion skin, you might need three wraps.
Good luck.

[jerrold]

You did not state whether you want to patch to bore diameter...or to groove diameter.

If you think you want a naked diameter of ~.440" you will certainly be 'patching to bore'...but you might have trouble wrapping enough paper on to get it up to .450". (Depends on what you plan to use for patching.)

Your Pedersoli has a .460" freebore that is about .235" long. Knowing that might make you think that 'patching to groove' could be a better choice. It is at least something to consider.

As we speak, I am cogitating on that same question...

Did you ever measure the diameters of the bullets you already tried?

CM[/QUOTE]

Well now,
I am into the cups (hot black dark roast, percolator, no drip for me). considered your comments over night.
My concept as to how this paper thing works is, a smooth side soft bullet less than bore diameter wrapped with paper to something over bore diameter.
As to the free bore in the Pedersoli, my solution was to set the patched bullet out to engage the land and grove. Didn't have a lot of bullet left in the case, that is why the adjustable mold seems practical.
Measuring what i have test fired, the they patched were .450 to .453.The ones I patched were .449 to .453 ( not enough paper????? too much paper??? ) I didn't record the measurement of the naked bullet but the number .444 -.446 comes to mind. I did record that sizing the bullet before wrapping may help so the ones I had must not have been consistent.

[Don McDowell]

For the most part if you're shooting black powder, then going to bore diameter or under is probably where you'll find the best accuracy.
Seating the bullet out to where it just barely sits in the case works with some bullets and not others. The only thing an adjustable mold will do for you is increase the bullet weight. Which I like mine for, I can throw 520 or so for the 45-70, and 550's for the 2.3.
Speaking of 2.3 have you measured your chamber to be sure of the length? Some of the Italian guns are actually a bit to long and need brass that is either stretched to fit, or trimmed back from the next longest case to achieve the top accurracy.
Were those .449-.453 bullets in the same batch or were those measurements of different papers tried? Uniform diameter is just as critical with paper patch as with grease grooves.
Did you crimp those loads? Crimp with a roll crimp die and paper patch don't mix so good. Taper crimp is better.
Wads and stuff you put between the powder and the pp bullet can also make a huge difference in whether or not you can get any accuracy worth talking about.

[montana_charlie]

As to the free bore in the Pedersoli, my solution was to set the patched bullet out to engage the land and grove. Didn't have a lot of bullet left in the case,

Admitting I have not fired any paper patched bullets...have no experience to relate...and am just working on logic...
Here is what that method looks like, to me.

You have a less-than-bore piece of lead which is wrapped with paper.
The paper is thick enough to equal bore diameter, and the case neck is squeezed down enough to have a light grip on that diameter.

So, you have a skinny piece of lead (.442") forming a bridge between two 'tubes' (the brass case and the steel bore) that are at .450".
The case neck, having been squeezed down to fit the bullet, is not a 'close fit' in the front of the chamber recess, so it might tend to lay off center, in there.
The middle of that piece of lead passes through a third 'tube' (the steel freebore) which is .460"...and the paper is not thick enough to fill up that extra space.

When fired, the first thing that skinny piece of lead will do is get fat enough to mash the paper against the wall of the freebore. That's not a very 'smooth' transition from brass tube to steel tube.
After it obdurates enough to fill the .460" freebore tightly it will start to move forward...which means a second modification of the bullet (that you went to so much trouble to cast perfectly) as it deforms to fit the rifling.
By this time it is probably a 'patched-to-groove' bullet/paper combination, but it is shorter and fatter than when it fell from the mould.


The alternative to consider...
What if the bullet (combined with it's paper) was already at freebore diameter?
The case neck would be starting at something close to 'fireformed' size, so it will stay centered in the chamber cut. Additionally, the neck ID should about equal the freebore.
That should make the transition from brass tube to steel tube almost unnoticeable .

The bullet would pass through the freebore essentially unchanged because there's no room for it to get fatter...which keeps it from getting shorter.
The only modification to the original would be when the rifling causes grooves in the sides.


A conclusion based on logic, not experience...
The 'famous' guys who shoot paper patch like the patched-to-bore bullets.
In order to get best performance, they (some of them) have gone to 'paper patch chambers' which have a tighter neck area...or they are using brass with thicker neck walls.
They (many of them) are also using rifles that have (esentially) no freebore at all, so the bullet passes directly from the case into the leade...and the bullet only needs to obdurate enough to fill that space. In other words, it's only modified once.

Guys who shoot smokeless must patch to groove because that powder won't obdurate a bullet fast enough to prevent blow-by.
Guys who use black can patch to bore because BP will cause bump up.
But I see nothing in that 'rule of thumb' which says that patched-to-groove is a 'bad thing' when shooting black.

I don't know if one size choice is inherently 'better' than the other but I suspect the 'best choice' depends on the chamber of the rifle in question.

Since that is (still) just my 'suspicion', I haven't decided on what size mould to buy. But that decision is being influenced by everything I have picked up while reading these forums.
One of those 'tidbits' came from a recommendation from Dan Theodore when he was talking to a Pedersoli owner who wanted to try paper patch. He advised that shooter to start with a .454" naked bullet...

CM

[docone31]

I would get a bore diameter casting.
You can always size down from there.
I use the Lee Push Thru Sizing System. Pretty easy.

[powderburnerr]

charlie ,
you can control the bump up of the bullet by varieing the alloy and the powder granulation to some extent , if you stay within the paramaters of the alloy and get the bullet to obdurate when it is in the bore you will have very consistant results ,you can see the results as you change the components ,they are easy to read...........Dean

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for that 'reminder' powderburnerr. I'll keep it high on the list of considerations.

I would get a bore diameter casting.
You can always size down from there.
I use the Lee Push Thru Sizing System. Pretty easy.

I don't think of that as a viable option, docone.
CM

[leftiye]

Originally Posted by docone31
I would get a bore diameter casting.
You can always size down from there.
I use the Lee Push Thru Sizing System. Pretty easy.

I don't think of that as a viable option, docone.
CM

CM,

I don't understand why not. The paper patch will take it to where your above post wants it to be (freebore diameter), won't it? Bore diameter boolit (and I agree with you - I don't see why not for black also) or some larger, is the standard size for smokeless, I thought.

[montana_charlie]

CM,

I don't understand why not. The paper patch will take it to where your above post wants it to be (freebore diameter), won't it?

I meant I don't consider reducing the diameter in a sizing die as a viable option. I would prefer to have a mould that casts the right size to begin with.

Choosing the exact 'right size' is what I am hung up on.
It will be at least .450" and (probably) not larger than .452".
Because I will go with the 'Money Nose', the alloy will need to be somewhat 'hard'...like 16-1.

I have been thinking lately that, if the mould throws .450" in lead/tin, but .452" seems to be a better choice, I could use wheel weight alloy to try for a bit more diameter.

If that worked out, I could send the mould back for 'enlargement'...thus saving the hassle (and expense) of cutting two complete moulds.

On the other hand (and even easier) I might be satisfied to just use paper patched wheel weight in the original .450" mould...if it works well. It would certainly be hard enough to hold the 'Money Nose' without slump.
CM

[John Boy]

Saw one adjustable custom made on this site that seems to be the cats meow.

jerrold: You have to be talking about the Fred Leeth (Pioneer Products) adjustable 446 mold based on the 1874 Sharps PP bullet



I wouldn't be afraid of the BACO PP molds. The prices are reasonable and they are well made. No adjustables though

I use mine for 45-70 and below ... 45-75 PP bullets

[Lead pot]

Jerrold.

If you chamber does have considerable free bore, my early Pedersoli had .380 free bore and some of my originals had as much as .400 you will only get mediocre accuracy from a bullet patched to bore diameter, but it will work.
You will have better results patching to groove. I would suggest that you check exactly how long the free bore is.
You can do a cast or you can do this.
Take a cast ,458 diameter bullet and seat it nose first in a empty case that has been sized so you have a snug fit. Insert the round into the chamber and see just how the bullet will get pushed into the case till you can raise the block.
It might help putting some patches in the case if the slug fits loose.
Gently remove the case from the chamber you might have to help it a little with a cleaning rod if you engraved the throat lead.
If you indeed have a bore that shows 3-4 grease grooves I would suggest that you patch to groove diameter.
Find the paper avalible.002-.0025 and get the diameter bullet you need to get patched to groove or at least to .456-457 or even to .458 if you dont have to seat the bullet deep in your case.

LP

[jerrold]

For the most part if you're shooting black powder, then going to bore diameter or under is probably where you'll find the best accuracy.
Seating the bullet out to where it just barely sits in the case works with some bullets and not others. The only thing an adjustable mold will do for you is increase the bullet weight. Which I like mine for, I can throw 520 or so for the 45-70, and 550's for the 2.3.
Speaking of 2.3 have you measured your chamber to be sure of the length? Some of the Italian guns are actually a bit to long and need brass that is either stretched to fit, or trimmed back from the next longest case to achieve the top accurracy.
Were those .449-.453 bullets in the same batch or were those measurements of different papers tried? Uniform diameter is just as critical with paper patch as with grease grooves.
Did you crimp those loads? Crimp with a roll crimp die and paper patch don't mix so good. Taper crimp is better.
Wads and stuff you put between the powder and the pp bullet can also make a huge difference in whether or not you can get any accuracy worth talking about.

Well now, loaded up on the coffee and read some new and ready to go......
You bring up several points that I may need to address.
First I must disagree with your statement that the only thing an adjustable mold will do for you is increase the weight. By its nature it will increase the length in direct proportion to the increase weight.
As to the chamber length in relation to case length this was not an issue in my ability to develop the load in grease grove bullets. I will look at it and see where I stand. From what I read some where I am probably short with the Pedersoli chamber and Starline brass.
I didn't crimp any of my "test",nor did I resize. There in may lie one of the problems. the wrapped bullet may have been to small for the fire formed case.
I am accustomed to just thumb seating for grease grove and thought it good for paper.

[Don McDowell]

Your grease groove bullet don't give a rip whether or not the paper wrapped around them gets torn or rumpled up between the time the bullet base leaves the case mouth and the time it enters the rifling.
Trying to compare what works with grease groove and what works with paper patch is folly, the two are as different as night and day.

Well duhhhh yes as you increase the weight the length of the bullet changes.......
You also need to watch that the length of the bullet doesn't get to long to stablize in the twist rate, and velocity at which your rifle is hurling those slugs. Unless folks want a lighter bullet for paper patching most of the time we set the length of our adjustable molds to the same length as the grease groove bullets that work the best in our rifle.
Here's something else you can find disagreeable, alloy hardness or lack thereof, can raise holyned with your paper patch bullets. To hard and the rifling might not engrave properly thru the paper. To soft and not only can the nose slump, the base can get deformed into a not neatly square flat surface.
I also think not sizing cases for paper patch is trouble as it allows the smaller diameter patched bullet to lay on the bottom of the case and not centered as would be the norm with a grease groove.
Paper patching ain't grease groovin. It takes quite a bit more time and effort, with different combinations of paper ,wads, grease cookies , felt wads, seating depth, sizing or not, crimp or no and the list goes on to get and accurate load going with paper patch, where as you are already aware all you got to to is slop a grease groove bullet in a charged and primed case and you're good to go.........