How did they do that? And was Cordite ever available on the retail market?

[alfadan]

Has anyone who's shot cordite noticed the smell? Is it different than normal nitrocellulose/nitroglycerine?

[andrew375]

Cordite could never be practical to be sold retail. In the loading process strands from several reels of cordite were combined and cut to length, the length being determined by load testing before quantity production. The cordite rope was cut by automatic machine and dropped into the case before necking, a paper disc was placed on top followed by the bullet, then the case was final formed and crimped to the bullet. The need to load cordite into a straight case is why so many of the British cartridges have long tapering forms, like the. 300 and. 375 H&H.

Cordite actually burns "cooler " than other propellants in use at the time, which is why it continued in service for so long. The reason it "burns " barrels is due to the high proportion of nitroglycerin that results in the propellant gases being oxygen rich (most propellants are oxygen poor) the surplus oxygen combines with the iron of the barrel steel to form iron oxide, which being brittle breaks off when the next round is fired thus exposing a fresh surface to be oxidized. Combine this with corrosive primers and its it's no wonder barrels didn't last long.

Btw, for a good read on cordite development and use see the 1996 Handloader's Digest.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, andrew375.

Quite a while back I hypothesized that my one particular bore had eroded to its current profile due to 'micro-oxidation'. I had speculated that very fine rust would occur which got shot out, leaving the bore smooth and shiny. At this time the rifling is shallow and somewhat rounded on the edges and the throat area enlarged, mid bore the rifling gets stronger but near the muzzle it gets worse again. So I was right although I did not realize it was the actual cordite doing the oxidation. It makes perfect sense.

I have recently acquired another barrel in similar condition but stronger at the muzzle. These bore conditions are actually prized by me because they seem to be perfect for paper patching. The last barrel is a SMLE which I like for its length and slimness, the first is a Martini 303 carbine which I have fitted on a 1896 MLE action. Very accurate with paper patch.

[15meter]

Cordite could never be practical to be sold retail. In the loading process strands from several reels of cordite were combined and cut to length, the length being determined by load testing before quantity production. The cordite rope was cut by automatic machine and dropped into the case before necking, a paper disc was placed on top followed by the bullet, then the case was final formed and crimped to the bullet. The need to load cordite into a straight case is why so many of the British cartridges have long tapering forms, like the. 300 and. 375 H&H.

Btw, for a good read on cordite development and use see the 1996 Handloader's Digest.

Kind of assumed that it wasn't available for handloaders, but with the old timers, they did a stunning number of things that most people wouldn't try today because it's "too hard".

Would love to see that article, anybody have it so that they can digitize and post the article on Cordite?

[15meter]

In the loading process strands from several reels of cordite were combined and cut to length, the length being determined by load testing before quantity production. The cordite rope was cut by automatic machine and dropped into the case before necking,

I could see this being wrapped on a reel and fed out:



Still pretty flexible.

Now I'm curious on how long the strands were on the reel. To be practical they would have to hundreds if not thousands of yards long or they would be spending all their time re-threading strands through the machines.

[uscra112]

Cordite actually burns "cooler " than other propellants in use at the time, which is why it continued in service for so long. The reason it "burns " barrels is due to the high proportion of nitroglycerin that results in the propellant gases being oxygen rich (most propellants are oxygen poor) the surplus oxygen combines with the iron of the barrel steel to form iron oxide, which being brittle breaks off when the next round is fired thus exposing a fresh surface to be oxidized. Combine this with corrosive primers and its it's no wonder barrels didn't last long.

Exactly. The idea that some powders "burn hot" causing erosion needs to be put to rest. Boyle's Law alone should convince any skeptics.

[swheeler]

Exactly. The idea that some powders "burn hot" causing erosion needs to be put to rest. Boyle's Law alone should convince any skeptics.

Winchester and I disagree with you!
In 1929, the Western Cartridge Company (forerunner of Winchester Ammunition) received U.S. Patent #2,027,114, issued to Western Cartridge as “Manufacture of Smokeless Powders.” Shortly after, Western Cartridge Company then commercially introduced BALL POWDER® smokeless propellant. The innovative BALL POWDER® process provided a number of technological advantages over common extruded type powders that were quickly leveraged by ammunition factories and the U.S. military. The key advantages of BALL POWDER® propellant include:

• Stable long life – in some cases exceeding the capability of extruded powders
• High density – ideal for rifle calibers. Yet the BALL POWDER® process is capable of density adjustment to also create high-performance pistol and shotshell powders
• Adjustable chemistry – allows the powder to be tailored to specific cartridge applications through chemistry as well as geometry.
• Lower flame temperature – allows longer barrel life.

[303Guy]

The more oxygen available, the hotter a substance will burn. Not only hotter, but quicker. Ever notice how some ball powders produce a flame flash at the muzzle? Lowering the available oxygen will reduce flame temperature and increase burn time even right up to the muzzle where combustion can be completed in air.

[Alferd Packer]

I read an article that said it had a strong smell to it and they kept the large spools of it on one side of a wall and fed it thru a hole in the wall to factory workers who shove the bundle into a rifle case and chopped it off and stood the case on an assembly line where it went to the next worker.
this kept the strong aroma from the open spools in the next room.
Just what I read.
Article about WW2 in Britain about
cordite powder spaghetti strands.

[n.h.schmidt]

I know that cordite did burn the barrels. It's been talked about many times. It was known to scorch enfield barrels a long way up . I have two enfields that have fuzzy bore syndrome .Said to caused by cordite. You go to clean the rifle.You slop up your patch with whatever cleaner you like and push it up the tube . You pull it back out and look down the barrel. In two of my Rifles the barrels will have patch fuzz inside the barrel up to about half way.After that all is normal. . If I use a brush all that goes away. The barrels look normal to my eyes. I have seen first cleaning of rusty barrels do this too. With them eventually the patch fuzz goes away.
n.h.schmidt

[higgins]

I shot a lot of UK surplus .303 over the years. It does have a unique smell, some smelling stronger than others. I would also occasionally see the remains of the over-powder wad fluttering down.

I'm convinced most of the rough bore Enfields are not the result of cordite, rather the result of civilian owners who shot corrosive surplus ammo and cleaned improperly or not at all resulting in rough bores. After military range sessions correct solvents (or just hot water) were used, with an NCO standing over you to make sure cleaning was done correctly.

[Soundguy]

Most of my 303 ww1 surplus is click..bang.. With occasional... Click...... Darn it...

[gschwertley]

I know that old .303 Brit is common to find charged with Cordite, anyone know other cartridges that were loaded with it? I have some old 8mm Lebel, WWII vintage that I've been curious of. I also have a true WWI single 8mm Lebel with cupro-nickel bullet that I would love to pull down and see but its the only one I have and I don't have the heart to mess with it. Its survived a long time!

Seems like I remember some Italian 6.5mm ammo loaded with Cordite.

[perotter]

Seems like I remember some Italian 6.5mm ammo loaded with Cordite.

Cordite is along the lines of a brand, but not exactly. But the Italians did use a power that was very similar in it's chemistry and chemical processing to Cordite in the 6.5mm. Actually Cordite is thing of a copy of this powder and likely done to keep from paying Nobel money to use his formulations.

But as far as I know it was never used in rifles as long "strings", artillery maybe. As far as I know it was used in rifles as flakes. It was even more erosive than Cordite. At least in the early versions of both. Around 1900, give or take, Cordite was changed so it wasn't as erosive.

FWIW. Some of the tests done in the late 1880's and the 1890's that in part tested the erosion of various powders then in use are still available. So there is no question as to these powder eroding the barrels of rifles. They indeed did do so more than say the French powders then being made. What the exact details of the situation after WW1, I don't know.

[MT Gianni]

Has anyone who's shot cordite noticed the smell? Is it different than normal nitrocellulose/nitroglycerine?

I have heard it has a distinctive smell when fired but never had the occasion to do so. IIRC, it was never loaded in handguns, so when the authors talk about the smell of cordite, it had best be a rifle fired in the 1930's.

[perotter]

Cordite wasn't all made in long rods. It came in various shapes. Even in very short rods and/or tubes. So it was used in handgun ammo.

As to the bigger topic on this thread. Somewhere I have an article about Cordite that goes into much detail about it. I know it mentions people having Cordite at home for reloading, but I don't remember if it says it was purchased or acquired by other means. But I haven't run across yet since this came up. I'm thinking it was in either 'Cartridges of the World' or 'Handloader's Digest', but ........

[perotter]

See the 15th edition of Handloaders Digest 1996.

[Thumbcocker]

In many adventure stories back in the day the "smell of cordite " was a mainstay;as was "automatic revolver "

[Moleman-]

WWII video on making 303 ammo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXNXUpOozDg

[Jim Watson]

There was an article in The Rifleman about cordite, the picture referenced above was there, and the first cordite has 10% nitroglycerine and 5% petroleum jelly. When they found out about the bore erosion they almost reversed the percentages of nitro and petroleum jelly.

Huh? Cordite Mk I was over 50% nitroglycerine, under 50% nitrocellulose, 5% petroleum jelly.
Cordite MD (ModifieD) reversed the proportions to majority nitrocellulose to reduce erosion.

I once fired about 500 rounds of cordite machine gun rounds through my new 303 barrel. The wear in the throat region was visible! It did nothing to the accuracy but I could feel it when cleaning the bore. It was smoother in the first bit.

The British were quite stern about not alternating Cordite and nitrocellulose (Z headstamp) loaded ammunition in machine guns. Seems that gave erratic barrel erosion which could throw shots wild. Not good for overhead fire of your own people advancing on the enemy.

Lower flame temperature – allows longer barrel life.

Hodgdon made a lot of hay off that claim when selling Ball C and others.

I have heard it has a distinctive smell when fired but never had the occasion to do so. IIRC, it was never loaded in handguns, so when the authors talk about the smell of cordite, it had best be a rifle fired in the 1930's.

There was certainly Revolver Cordite, chopped short enough for handgun cartridges.
What gets me is the frequent reference to the "acrid stench of Cordite" even in modern fiction by authors/characters who were born after Cordite fell out of use.

I recall from Greener that Cordite rifle loads were specified by the number of strands in the "rope" and the length of "rope" giving the desired pressure and velocity, down to the 1/20 inch.

I read once that when Winchester shortened the barrel of the .458 to 22" and maybe softened the ammo for tropical hunts, some PWHs with one of the few chronographs in Africa were dismayed to be getting velocity less than 2000 fps. So they pulled some .303 bullets and loaded .458s with salvaged Cordite and got back close to .450 NE.