Lawyer Am I wrong.

[schutzen-jager]

just had wills done for wife + I - lawyers here charge a flat rate $400.00 for will, power of attorney, living will directive, + filing with surrogate - do not know what the fee for trusts is - many lawyers specialize in wills + do not charge an hourly rate -

[Char-Gar]

The Texas Legislature created these documents and they are found in the Texas Statutes. They are good as gold in Texas. They are free to download.

[Rapier]

There is not much more messed up or worse than a person with property that dies intestate, without a will, or even directions for the treatment of assets or the funeral, or themselves in a hospital, and no attempt whatever to take care of the little items, like estate taxes, for the kids.
I am a retired Bonding Agent, court and probate bonds. Have seen thousands of these train wrecks.Usually brought in after the fact to try to fix the disaster.
My advise is prior to death, you arrange for a meeting with your accountant, attorney insurance agent, and a funeral director. Get your personal house in order before you dump all of that garbage on your kids at midnight, one night.

The state or feds become 100% mercenary after deah, they want their pound of you assets. You can protect every bit of that by sevral legal processes, if and only if, you do so before hand.

Remember, Life itself is a terminal disease and you are not getting out of this life alive.

I am going to relate one true story, a help, help, what do I do story. A really Great and successful realestate attorney dies of a massive heart attack, in the hospital, itself. Tells son, a minister, do not worry, I took care of everything. In the middle of the estate is 7 miles on the ocean, on a 4 lane highway, then 10 mile north on another 4 lane highway, to a big deep river, then back on the river. state says 10s of millions of dollars worth. Within 48 hours the state sent certified demands, wanting their 35%, of the retail sale value, in a cashiers check, millions of dollars.

My advice, was to call then go sit down with the state and negotiate a settlement.
The settlement transferred 1,000 acres to the state, with road bed clay pits on it, in exchange for the taxes on the rest of the property.

That is what can actually happen, did happen, and I have dozens of these stories, that do not end well.
A trust containing the property with son and father as trustees would have eliminated the problem, including the estate taxes, in this state. You need to be careful about setting up a trust, they can be so tight, you need to go to court to just change oil or tires on a car in the trust. The trust needs to be usable in every day life.
Your state laws could well be different so be advised, you need advice from experts within your state or the state where the estate exists.

[schutzen-jager]

Rapier, truly great advice - my wifes WWII vet father died suddenly last Feb. - +it took me a month to find original signed copy of will [ only legally valid copy for probate in this state ] - my wife named as executer, so much of the burden was on me - found 3 insurance policies that were not updated, in addition to my wife her brother, + sister his wife deceased in 1995 + other Vietnam vet son deceased in 2015 were on policies - i forget the amount of death certificates + statements i had to copy + notarize for the insurance carriers - just when i thought everything was taken care of lawyer learned of another obstacle - because his living son was a state Medicaid recipient years ago he was required to pay back the amount he received in aid [ $30,000, + ] before he could receive his inheritance - the 3 recipients split the amount 3 ways to clear up that debt - hopefully estate should be closed out after Feb. when deceased income tax is completed - insurance amounts are tax free + under certain amounts federal + state inheritance tax are exempt - our lawyer kept legal expenses down by having us do most of the leg work that we could his$400.00 fee saved us many thousands of dollars - my wife + i updated our wills + other incidentals recently so our heirs have it easier -

FYI - if the deceased is a veteran or a volunteer fireman [ in some states ], or union member there are other benefits that are available - all vets entitled to free cemetery stone marker + honor guard - volunteer fireman death benefit -

[waksupi]

I have my will deposited with the county Clerk of Court, cremation pre-paid, and heath directive on file at the local hospital and my doctor.

[Winger Ed.]

Within 48 hours the state sent certified demands, wanting their 35%, of the retail sale value, in a cashiers check, millions of dollars.

Around the country,
a lot of family farms that had been in a family for generations were broken up and sold off to pay inheritance taxes.

[Wag]

Rapier's comments above are very succinct and to the point. Just get it done, people. Your family and friends will appreciate you for it.

Also,

1. Don't use the forms you find on line. They don't apply to you and you can make mistakes that will burden your family.
2. Get an attorney and if you don't like the first one, keep shopping around. Attorneys can be great at generating fees. We had one who was going to bill us for drive time. At least an hour each way. Ugh.
3. Make a list of where all your docs are and give that list to your executors.
4. Most importantly of all: HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS! It's not really all that pleasant to talk about but better than the unpleasantries of doing business while you're grieving.

A word about trust. They are great if you have a substantial asset base to protect but below a certain amount, fees will eat it all up. There's a right way to do a trust and it's done wrong more often than not.

--Wag--

[JimB..]

Around the country,
a lot of family farms that had been in a family for generations were broken up and sold off to pay inheritance taxes.

Absolutely. Not sure when it went into effect, but there is now a law that allows an illiquid asset to change hands upon death and defers payment of estate taxes. The government takes a lien on the property and holds it until the taxes are paid. It is most often applied to the value of privately owned businesses, including farms. In practice the lien simply expires, and the obligation written off, after 10 years; I don’t think that this is statutory, it’s just what happens.

FWIW, I don’t believe that the story Rapier shared is true. The government will only rarely even know that you’re dead within 48 hours, and they have no claim based on estate tax that would allow them to make such an immediate demand. The only thing I can think is that he had an existing liability, him and not his estate, and that the state had been after him for months or years prior to his unexpected passing. He passed before it was resolved and his family just happened to get the next letter.

[schutzen-jager]

Jim B. - fwiw - sometimes it takes less than 48 hours coroners, funeral directors, electronically report deaths to social security - the IRS is soon involved when estate is probated + executer must obtain an EIN to start administering the estate -

[JoeJames]

I have been practicing law for over 46 years in a small town in the Arkansas Delta. I try to do simple planning. I would say "Estate Planning", but actually what I try to avoid is the person's property whether real or personal from ever becoming an estate. I other words, I try and set it up so there is no estate out there which would require Probate Court. Beneficiary Deeds, or Deeds with Reservation of Life Estate both pass to what would otherwise be the "heirs" at the time of death by operation of law. With bank accounts you can either set them up as a joint account, or "payable on death". In Arkansas you can also change a vehicle title to name a beneficiary. IRA's and Life Insurance policies normally already have a named beneficiary. So in normal circumstances all that is left is personal property and you can always use a Bill of Sale naming the beneficiary.

The biggest tragedy I see on a regular basis is where the decedent had a sure nuff genuine Will, but say had just a small house, a vehicle, and a bank account. Just a small amount of planning could have avoided running all that through Probate Court. In Probate Court, regardless of the size of the "estate" you still have to jump through all of the same legal hoops, with resultant attorney's fees for all of that, plus 3 to 6 months before the estate can even be distributed.

[JimB..]

Jim B. - fwiw - sometimes it takes less than 48 hours coroners, funeral directors, electronically report deaths to social security - the IRS is soon involved when estate is probated + executer must obtain an EIN to start administering the estate -

Agreed.

[ulav8r]

I have been practicing law for over 46 years in a small town in the Arkansas Delta. I try to do simple planning. I would say "Estate Planning", but actually what I try to avoid is the person's property whether real or personal from ever becoming an estate. I other words, I try and set it up so there is no estate out there which would require Probate Court. Beneficiary Deeds, or Deeds with Reservation of Life Estate both pass to what would otherwise be the "heirs" at the time of death by operation of law. With bank accounts you can either set them up as a joint account, or "payable on death". In Arkansas you can also change a vehicle title to name a beneficiary. IRA's and Life Insurance policies normally already have a named beneficiary. So in normal circumstances all that is left is personal property and you can always use a Bill of Sale naming the beneficiary.

The biggest tragedy I see on a regular basis is where the decedent had a sure nuff genuine Will, but say had just a small house, a vehicle, and a bank account. Just a small amount of planning could have avoided running all that through Probate Court. In Probate Court, regardless of the size of the "estate" you still have to jump through all of the same legal hoops, with resultant attorney's fees for all of that, plus 3 to 6 months before the estate can even be distributed.

When mom died last year there was nothing to probate. She had gone into the nursing home in the fall of 2020. We spent down her savings and checking accounts on allowable improvements to her home and vehicle, which were then converted to beneficiary deeds and titles. Upon mothers death my sister became the owners of her property. We then had the mineral rights split off from the property and my sister bought my half of her vehicle. The improvements made to her home brought her cash assets down low enough that she qualified for Medicaid.

[JoeJames]

When mom died last year there was nothing to probate. She had gone into the nursing home in the fall of 2020. We spent down her savings and checking accounts on allowable improvements to her home and vehicle, which were then converted to beneficiary deeds and titles. Upon mothers death my sister became the owners of her property. We then had the mineral rights split off from the property and my sister bought my half of her vehicle. The improvements made to her home brought her cash assets down low enough that she qualified for Medicaid.

But as one of my buddies said regarding Beneficiary Deeds: So we lose our Probate fees?" Ans: "Yup". However Beneficiary Deeds are kind of risky if the Grantor goes into a nursing home. Better, but I do know if you have to go into Probate usually DHS has a lien already on file at the County Clerk's office.

[ascast]

Good read, I can only add- DON'T WAIT. Having gone through this with my mother just 4 years ago. She did not have the living trust finalized, but planned for 15 years. Suddenly her mental abilities dropped off sharply. It was near impossible to get her to sign anything, like the light bill, say nothing off a will of any kind. It took some real creativity to get things in order, like POA, Living trust, etc. So, do not wait or drag your feet. and remember, no matter how you divvy up the pile of loot, somebody will be unhappy. best of luck

ps be very care full any "nurseing home" coverage. What was sold out as 100% coverage was in fact about 20%. We/she got burned badly as it was not cheap. She passed before that became an issue.

[ulav8r]

But as one of my buddies said regarding Beneficiary Deeds: So we lose our Probate fees?" Ans: "Yup". However Beneficiary Deeds are kind of risky if the Grantor goes into a nursing home. Better, but I do know if you have to go into Probate usually DHS has a lien already on file at the County Clerk's office.

We acted under the guidance of an attorney.

[JoeJames]

We acted under the guidance of an attorney.

Well it is a crap shoot with DHS hovering around. Still better off then going in Probate Court.

[ulav8r]

Yeah, DHS took the last royalties payment that came about 2 weeks after mom died.

[jonp]

Check out 'Legal Zoom.com".

They did a good job for us on a Living Trust.


Of the products and services they offer--- they've held up in court in all 50 states.

Don't put it off.
My Mom passed away and had a standard type will.
With a attorney the wife worked with, we were in and out of probate in a few minutes,
a couple days after the county issued her death certificate and it could be put on the docket for the court.

My Dad wouldn't get one--- it made him feel old.
When he passed away, with a friendly court and old family friend lawyer-
It cost a little more for the probate, and also added 6 months onto the process to wait
for 'unnamed heirs' to come forward before the judge would sign off and release his estate.
During that time, his bank accounts were locked down, so I got to pay the taxes & maintence
on his house & cars, and couldn't sell or otherwise dispose of them.
Just the taxes for holding his house off the market for 7 months were a 'hidden' expense of a few thousand dollars.


If it will fit for you, a living trust takes the court out of the process, and is real hard to contest.

I ordered a Will from them I think it was $100? Very in depth and all it needed was two witnesses and notorized.

[popper]

A living will -- Called DNR here. But often over-ridden by spouse. There is also POD for financial accounts. As I understand, death certificate and no probate involved. IIRC, usually spouse dies first in case both die simultaneously so POD doesn't work unless another beneficiary is included. There is also something tricky about the estate of ill person - pertaining to mental capacity. Supposed to prevent deathbed wills?

[Winger Ed.]

I ordered a Will from them I think it was $100? Very in depth and all it needed was two witnesses and notorized.

$100? Good deal,,, it costs about that much for a lawyer just to answer the phone.

We did the living trust to speed things up after we're gone, and keep our estate out of probate court.
It sets you up sort of like being a corporation. It lives on after the principles of it are gone.
The executors can continue to manage it, or dissolve it and dispose/distribute its assets without a judge's approval or order.
It is available as a 'kit' with all the documents for everything you can think of- a will, DNR forms, all sorts of stuff.
The only down side is you need to chose the executors very, very carefully.

Ours was a few hundred bucks, but it ends up being a stack of documents about a inch & a half thick.
In our probate and civil law system here--- it's air tight as far as being successfully contested.