You receieved my PM. The rules have been explained. The ball is in your court.
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You receieved my PM. The rules have been explained. The ball is in your court.
I just thought of something else. We work out the most accurate load and shoot some super groups. Next week they look like crap so we clean the barrel and do all the gyrations. The one thing not thought of is the weather changed on us. Burn of the powder, even barrel harmonics have changed enough to take away the edge.
Old timers used to find a good load, then go up and down with the powder charge to make sure the boolits hit the same place so there would be no change in the sights for hunting when weather changes. But when we work in 1/10 gr increments, that luxury isn't there.
I believe this is one big reason we have so much trouble duplicating groups over the course of the year. We might blame our shooting on that day or the lube when it is really out of our control. I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there!
Originally Posted by 44man
I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there!
Jim,
I do. I have loads that shoot real well when it's cold and some that shoot best in warm. My summertime designs are olgivals and my winter designs are semi-wadcutters to remove fouling.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
I did that with rifles but don't bother with my revolvers. I work loads in the nice time of year for good groups but when I need them, the targets are a lot larger---the side of a deer!
I admit that there is no drastic change with the revolver and I don't worry about it because target shooting ends at hunting season.
Joe--
You won't score points by comparing admin staff to Charles Hamilton. Leave it alone.
Just about all of us here have at least some interest in advancing the hobby or re-discovering what makes cast boolits tick. A lot of knowledge was lost over the past 30-50 years when mass-marketed components took over the reloading supply market. While I fully support your efforts to make the hobby as scientific and as repeatable/verifiable as possible, I am wondering if we are all sort of "chasing ghosts" with all of the possible variables that exist in the cast boolit accuracy and consistency equation. It remains a lot more art than science for many of us, and for that reason I think it best to deal more gently with those we disagree with.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Bass, Larry, Pat & Starmetal (Joe), Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and further my understanding of these phenomena. Funny thing, I do indeed get peak accuracy (~1" - 1.5"moa) from my '06 (Mod. 70 Win., glass-bedded + trigger job) between 1,700fps - 1,850fps with gas checked CB's. With plain based CB's, e.g. the Lee 30-150-TL-PB, the best performance has been ~1,300fps - 1,500fps with them lubed normally in an oversized sizing die (targets @ 50yds. posted under "Group Buy Mold Results"), but this one is a work in progress.
Also, after watching the AL & NL playoffs and World Series, I have to say that the hardest variable to control and thus predict is human variability (pitchers, batters). Sports professionals spend a great deal more time practising and doing what they do than we do and yet, the results are often not as expected. (George Steinbrenner hasn't learned this yet.) It seems to me the shooter's skill(s) follow this pattern as well. It's certainly true in my case! Given this state of affairs, I think that testing CB performance, with as many relevant variables as we can include, in a universal receiver with bbls. in multiple calibers ("standard" rather than BR chambering) would, at least theoretically, confirm our suspicions as well as reveal our mistaken assumptions. Those of you who are skilled in research design and multivariate analysis, which I most certainly am not, may find such an undertaking to not only be feasible, but satisfying, although probably beyond our means. Barring a universal receiver, etc., skilled BR shooters using production rifles (tuned) would be an even more practical approach.
It is not the questions that have garnered the attention of staff here Joe, it is the assaulting style you have displayed in some of your more recent posts. Nobody gets a free pass to "call out" another member here. There are a thousand ways to seek information and 999 of them would probably get a pass or better from us, one sure way to get attention however is to deliver a verbal punch to the guts of one of our members. That will not be condoned or overlooked.
Courtesy and manners count, I and the members of this forum depend on a positive when we visit here and nobody likes to see traps set and blows applied to fellow members.
Apologies are in order sometimes, I have made them myself, you might review some of your posts and see how you would look to others if you were a first time visitor.
Boolits= as God laid it into the soil,,grand old Galena,the Silver Stream graciously hand poured into molds for our consumption.
Bullets= Machine made utilizing Full Length Gas Checks as to provide projectiles for the masses.
http://www.cafepress.com/castboolits
castboolits@gmail.com
PatI,
You're right, of course. Defects being spun faster have greater effect due to greater imbalance forces.
I wasn't saying that it is all about the strength of the lead failing, just curious about when that might be and maybe how to calculate it.
If you knew the failure RPMs for a given diameter you'd definitely know how much was too much. Plus, if your RPM were anywhere close to failing it would cause distortions with or without blems plus exacerbate (distort) the blems somewhat earlier still than at that point. Might be interesting to see how close this was to Larry's limit, might be closer than we guess.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
Leftiye,
I think there is a system where where you can find the (I hate to say it) limit with various calibers and twists, it's where most people are getting the best accuracy. I don't think it'd be a wrong assumption to say Bass never said he gets the best accuracy at high speed, at least that's what that other person said in the 6.5 thread, just that it's possible. I might be wrong but I'm sure I'll hear about it shortly if I am.
Maybe you guys are a lot more meticulous than me but when I'm working up a load with a suitable powder I increase the charge until the the groups start opening up again and and go back to the best one. Maybe other guys have found that if you keep going up the groups start opening and closing like an accordion but I haven't and think it's more theory than actuality.
Some guys get a kick out of velocity, some accuracy, some out of getting an old rifle back in action. Bass said he was shooting some of the thin skinned varmint bullets at 4200 fps out of a 22/250, if I remember right and that's a neat trick but I've dismantled a lot of prairie dogs with 40 gr Nosler ballistic tips at 3200 fps out of a .223 and felt fairly comfortable taking 250 yd shots if they were perched on top of the mound. I'm starting to lose track of where I'm trying to go with this so better finish up. I like getting the best accuracy I think me and the gun are capable of and couldn't care less how fast it's going.
Pat
Perusing the back of "The Fouling Shot" # 189 at the equipment lists sheds a little light on this subject. Most rpm came from a 222 @ 2700 fps @ 1 -14 twist = 138857 rpm. Most of the loads of 1700 fps or more were in the 120,000 rpm range. Probably 90% of all loads listed were in the 65,000 to 100,000 rpm range. Looks like the 2000 fps+ guys like slow twists, 14 to 17.
44man, hold your breath, and mark the calendar. I agree with you!I just thought of something else. We work out the most accurate load and shoot some super groups. Next week they look like crap so we clean the barrel and do all the gyrations. The one thing not thought of is the weather changed on us. Burn of the powder, even barrel harmonics have changed enough to take away the edge.
Old timers used to find a good load, then go up and down with the powder charge to make sure the boolits hit the same place so there would be no change in the sights for hunting when weather changes. But when we work in 1/10 gr increments, that luxury isn't there.
I believe this is one big reason we have so much trouble duplicating groups over the course of the year. We might blame our shooting on that day or the lube when it is really out of our control. I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there!
Pat,
In some rifles my HV accuracy is lower, in some calibers it's higher. My 223 is actually the most accurate at the HV load often well below 1". That's the whole point to this. If you create the right vibration pattern and the bullet leaves the barrel on the node, you get accuracy. It's NO different than jacketed for me.
The way I approach every bullet design, every load attempted is to find the most accurate load for that rifle. Otherwise, the journey ain't worth the time. But the reality is not all my guns shoot as well as others. Not all bullets shoot as well or at as high a velocity in even the same gun. But that is exactly the same for me with jacketed. Cast booliteers understand this at 1800 fps, but their mind loses this concept when they start on up. They give up, as the limitation becomes the lead, not bullet fit or any of the thousand other possibilities that could be corrected and allow moving on up.
We had a 7MM Rem Mag once that was a one load wonder. It would shoot that load at 1/2" no matter how the rifle was bedded. Everything else was in the 2"s no matter how it was bedded. A rifle like that would not be cast friendly and a poor example to try. So accuracy is relative to the gun and how it is set-up.
I was hesitant to mention the 22-250 thing. You have to remember that that was 50 years ago. At a time when hand loading was to gain an advantage over factory stuff. And we probably pushed harder than we should have. Today, I don't even own a 22-250, it's the 223. The point was not our ignorance at that time. Not the superiority of the 40 grain bullet over 4000 fps but that it was done. But that jacketed performance WAS enhanced by the oil which tells me that it ain't the air tearing up the bullets, but the rifling in the gun from PRESSURE. I thought the lesson gained was worth the humiliation and understanding of how it was found.
I have pretty well outlined my thought processes between here and and the Acceleration Curve Thread. All the specifics are a matter of record on this board if you want to mine for them. Again I am here to tell you that there are no rules for shooting cast like cast. No right or wrong way. But when you want to start pushing higher velocity, the options that minimize pressure come to the forefront. If you heed their warning signs, you may continue. If you don't, you have just found your "RPM ceiling". Anyone wanting further communication on anything here, needs to use the PM feature. I don't want to appear to be harping on this subject although some out there may long have had that impression.
END of post.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
an interesting read on accuracy. you have probably seen it before but i just came across it and found it interesting and relative to the discussion here.
Roy
wish me luck. I'm off to elk camp in about an hour or so
How do paper-patched bullets effect your max, accurate velocity?
I'd think that if you can push paper-patched cast lead faster than lubed cast lead, the answer would not be related to internal voids.
But I dont' know much about how fast you can go with paper patching.....
There have been some articles written about paper patched 30 caliber boolits going over 3000 fps out of a 300 Win Mag written.
Now a days, to ME at least handloading and shooting is done for pleasure! Just HITTING the target seems to tickle me. I have in the past fretted over all manner of things trying to get less than 1 inch groups from guns at hunting ranges. I've tried to get as high a velocity as possible with cast AND jacketed bullets. I enjoy reading about other peoples trial and tribulations following that road and smile a lot. In the years doing this ,I have damaged a few nice fire arms regrettably. I also learned a few things along the way. Enjoying living is one of them and worrying about ME didn;t make any difference is another.
I think subsonic is heading into this never land with his question about paper patching. I wish him luck.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but thanks?
I just think YOU might get caught up in "The Quest For Hi Velocity" for it's own sake. While it IS fun to play with speed ,getting trapped in speed for speed's sake starts to drain the fun factor quickly. You start to think differently, looking for any excuse to try another powder,bullet, lube or even paper. Having exceeded the 3000 fps with cast barrier,I speak with a bit of experience. When YOU wake up in the middle of the night to mix up a new ALLOY, you'll know what I mean.
I see what you mean now.
I do like experiments.....
Jhalcott,
great point that you make. I try to make that same point frequently with friends who think handloading is only for reaching performance (speed in their minds) that you cannot get from factory ammo. I try very hard to get across that better performance does not always mean more speed. I find it very interesting that you can read some of the old recounts of african hunting with BP and Ball arms, but today we have to have the latest greatest big boomer magnum to shoot a 150 lb deer. I could go on and on, but I will not try to preach to the .....
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