My Secret to HV Cast

[Pat I.]

You're forgetting the "Two Shot Discount" rule that Bret mentioned in his post so in actuality you shot a 1/4 inch group which is excellent shooting by any standard.

I think I better quit kidding around because eventually someone's going to get ticked off and come gunnin for me, and you don't get the discount in that event.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

I really don’t think we should continue this side bar discussion to this thread. I just received an email from Joe where in he included that paragraph and his explanation to what he really meant. Joe and I are in agreement over what I said though we still disagree a bit on rpm’s effect on cast bullets. I don't understand why you are in disagreement. Here is Joe's last sentance of that email, It should end this side bar.

“You did, in my opinion, present my statement as an accuracy statement, not as a Waksupi bend the bullet fly off into wonderland test, which is 100 percent” (Joe did not finish the sentence)

Should you want to continue a discussion of rpm's effects (or non effect) on cast or jacketed bullets then I am game. However if you want to continue with a pissing contest then I am not for that game. I, like Pat I will be "outa here".

Larry Gibson

Whatsamatter Larry, you forget this already:
Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here. Larry Gibson

We'll go off board if you want.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass

My apologies, I have 26 of your LBT bullets left. I found another 6 with the heavy coat of white mica.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

OK. So I was wrong. Dang I hate that .

I send a lot of stuff but didn't remember two batches. Don't ever remember sending you anything else, huh? But take those 26 bullets and shoot 3 or each kind and see if they shoot the same. Or use a hardness tester if you can. That is pretty tough on spitzer bullets. Can't understand why they would be lubed differently. (too many experiments)

Your idea of traveling would be welcome and is REMARKABLY accommodative. If you are serious, take this off line and use the PM feature.


Pat,

You miss read a pissin contest. If I actually told you group sizes, you would definitely put me in the waco court if you haven't already.

[Pat I.]

Bass,

I didn't say we were heading for a pissing contest I said the thread was turning into a pissing contest, which eventually my big mouth would get me mixed up in. I'm a run of the mill BR shooter and have had fair success with a 250 gr bullet in a 30 PPC at 1750 fps in a 10 twist and hopefully with my latest project will be competitive with a 155 gr bullet at 2650 fps in a 17 twist, along with a whole lot of things in between including the 6.5. I can imagine your frustration with having to defend what you're saying at every turn and readily admit I haven't been able to match it. If you could clean everyone's clock at a BR match using a production gun you're a much better shooter and experimenter than I ever hope to be and hope you bring a good supply of Cleanex Tissue if you ever do show up to one because the guys that have a few bucks wrapped up in their custom rifles will need it.

Pat

[44man]

Rifles are funny things! I have seen off the shelf factory rifles shoot super tight groups with almost any load. Then some needed work but would only shoot one load. Some never shot good. Old military rifles are the same with even pitted barrels shooting better then new ones. There might be only one in a thousand of these that will do it.
Now a BR rifle is made to shoot with the best components and workmanship built in although you might still get one that just doesn't do it.
To spend a huge amount of money for the best BR rifle is just not in the cards for most of us and we have to use what we can afford, plus most are hunting rifles. There are those that CAN shoot right along with a good BR rifle or even outshoot one but it is rare and I have only had a couple in over 50 years. I have worked on thousands of rifles over the years, some would hold 1/2" all day, some 1", others were hard put to do 3". Then, once in a great while, there is the tack driver that will poke one hole. I have spent big bucks on some rifles that would not shoot anything yet a cheap Remington would make all of you shake your heads.
Take a cross section of everyone here and the guns we all own, how many are tack drivers? Not many! But there ARE a few and those that jump down your throat and start a pissing match are out of touch, having never owned one.
My revolvers are the same. If I have one that won't do 1" or way less at 50 yd's, I sell it. I also would sell a bad rifle. I am almost out of the rifle game though and only have the Swede left. I still work on them for others but the problem is, I don't see the accuracy with factory rifles anymore. The Savage seems to be the most consistant. Some say factory barrels are better then ever, I don't believe it. Some factories don't allow rejects and they are screwed to an action.

[felix]

Yep, about those bad rifles! Just shoot the suckers hot as possible for as long as possible in the hottest ambient you can stand. Interchange condoms with cast if you choose. Sooner or later, say after a thousand or two rounds, the gun just might start to come into a realistic pattern. To keep things interesting, just use bigger targets, or closer ranged targets. Either will do when the chips are down with that cheap ass barrel. As long as the action is good and strong, you can always have the gun revamped to shoot correctly, even if it requires a new barrel from the start. Won't hurt to see what happens over the long haul with a piece of crap, provided you are having fun doing so. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Whatsamatter Larry, you forget this already:
Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here. Larry Gibson

We'll go off board if you want.

Well it appeared to me it was turning into a pissing contest. I don't mind a good arguement among friends as long as we stick to facts. But I don't think this is the place to get personal as it appeared to me to be heading. I could be wrong and if so apologize. . Of course we can drink coffee or beer (or good Canadian whisky, eh) together. Would love to go shootin with you guys too.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

"OK. So I was wrong. Dang I hate that ." ..........I send a lot of stuff but didn't remember two batches. Don't ever remember sending you anything else, huh?"

What! you expect me to remember? Hey, I'm the guy that went to my records to count shots! CRAFT is a terrible thing.........

"...those 26 bullets and shoot 3 or each kind and see if they shoot the same. Or use a hardness tester if you can. That is pretty tough on spitzer bullets. Can't understand why they would be lubed differently. (too many experiments)"

Will test 5 each with 57 gr H4831 (consistantly did better than RL19 at HV in my rifle) over WLP primers. That load ran 2590 fps and shot into 2.1 - 3.42" at 100 yards the 3 times I tested it (5 shot groups). My method of testing BHN doesn't work on small bullets.

Wife and I are looking at RVs so I'll be setting you up as one destination for sure. We'll talk about it.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

One of the strangest to come into the shop was a Savage 110 in 30-06. The guy could not get enough windage on his scope to sight it. I found the barrel was screwed in a little crooked to the reciever. I was going to tell him to send it back until I shimmed the scope base and tried it. I shot four, five shot 3/4" groups in a row. Since he only shot factory loads and wanted it for deer, he was very happy. He still has it and gets his deer every season.
I have had several beautiful Sako rifles that could not be made to group with anything including over 200 different reloads. Barrel break in and accurizing did nothing.
Most Weatherby Mark 5's can be made to shoot like a target rifle.
It is hit or miss with almost any rifle and it just doesn't matter how much the gun cost.
Another one I could not explain was a Ruger Mark II, .22 that shot every bullet into the ground 10 feet in front of me. Every measurement was on the money and the bore and crown was perfect. All was straight too. I sent it to Ruger and they replaced it but never told me the problem. Some things can't be explained.
I have been a part time gunsmith for over 50 years and have seen some of the biggest $40 pieces of crap outshoot $2000 guns.
Most WW 1 and 2 rifles in perfect shape will outshoot our modern rifles. Do you think they made better barrels and scrapped bad ones?
My friend has a 1917 Enfield. He had a pile of every kind of reload and surplus ammo I ever seen. He dumped the mess on the bench and we shot small rocks and cans at 100 yd's all day. Didn't matter how the loads were mixed and shot, all hit where aimed. Try that with your new 30-06!

[IcerUSA]

I had an 1917 Eddystone the did what your friends did , 44Man , she just shot POA and under an 1" at a hundred. I loved that old gun, when I got it it had already been machined to a nice round reciever , Pick up a Carlo type stock for it and shortened the barrel to just behind the front sight slot . Had some nice sights put on it when I had it reblued , and an old Bushnel Cheifton with pop up post , That rifle sure was pretty . Don't have her an more but that a bad story and I won't tell about it . Hope my son keept it tho .


Keith

[joeb33050]

Pat, I think what accuracy in this conversation is more like how round the groups are, and are they what is realistically expected for the trials. We must always keep in mind how the boolits stay together at rotation. Those which are mo'betta' balanced at the RPM threshold will out-round those groups which are not made with boolits other than not perfectly round (consistent) at the target. This has to do with how the boolits accelerate, and how much the boolits are obturated on the back, sides and front inclusively. So, you can see that lube plays a role here as well, because we have to consider how the sides obturate. ... felix

The question was about accuracy, which BA seems to stay away from. Now we have this from Felix. It just makes no sense to me. The rpm threshold? Accelerate and obturate and lube-there's a lot of words here, but no information. Whatever happened to the short declarative sentence?
Accuracy is about reliably repeatable groups at some range. How about five five shot 100 yard group averages? How about more nouns and fewer adverbs and adjectives. Where's the groups?? What's the accuracy? Is this all theoretical BS with no shooting getting done? WHERE ARE THE GROUPS??? Maybe 45 2.1 will dust off his sole small group picture and show it to us.

By the way, the roundness of groups is an indication of whether the process is "in control", which simply means that ONE process is happening rather than more than one.

Is this nonsense, or is it me?

joe brennan
joe brennan

[Bass Ackward]

The question was about accuracy, which BA seems to stay away from. joe brennan

Joe,

I stay away from accuracy at HV for the same reason I stay away from accuracy at low velocity. Everyone has a different standard. It is what it is. If 1 1/2" is what your gun produces with jackets, then that should be your goal. If you can do better, then that is my goal. If I have a 2 1/2 power scope for hunting, I always work up with something heavier and swap. With the 2 1/2 power scope I am satisfied with 1 1/2". If I have the 36X on there, then 1/2" is top end.

But when I people throw numbers around here, you just lose some folks because their eyes roll back in their head and you lose credibility. Accuracy is JUST like HV in the dedication and focus it requires. Not every copper bench rest rifle shoots tenths every day. But cast is held to a different standard. If a guy shoots 3 shot groups, then someone else wants 5. Then if it's still good we want 10. Anybody for 50? Your groups standard should be based on your need. IF you have a 10 shot competition, then you need 10 shots. IF you must fire 5 groups that day, then you need a cleaner load than a hunter who can be satisfied with 3. But his accuracy is no less valid.

The issue here was the logic I use at HV. The logic pattern determines " MY " list .... AT HV ONLY!!!

And if you care to know, the logic and the steps and order I use at low velocity is different. My bullets are harder for low velocity than high. My lube choices are different. My bullet design is different. The list changes. I go to magnum rifle primers to eliminate powder position sensitivity. I don't use filler, but that should be on a list somewhere, just not mine. The accuracy standard remains THE SAME!!!

Change to a lever action and my logic will change again as to my go to solutions because seating into the lands is not a viable option now. Nor is a spitzer bullet. I want a bullet with a heavier front band to withstand the jump etc, etc.

So I would have different lists for different types of firearms. Once I got to know the gun, I would have a list or a logic trail for THAT specific gun based on passed testing. It used to be called getting to know your gun. In the olden days, it was, "Beware the one gun man."

So today, we only scratch the potential of one gun before we move on. That creates a flexibility which is a skill set in itself. And I am not saying that one skill set is better than an other. To each his own. But it is NOT a detail oriented philosophy. A detailed focus is required, if you care. The problem is that the guy that doesn't care stops experimenting at 1" cause he is satisfied. And when the next guy stops at 1/2" he cries BS. But you know what? It's EXACTLY the same for jacketed. You just don't go to the store very often and shoot in the tenths.

[Pat I.]

Bass it's really not all that complicated. First you tell everyone what gun you were shooting and include scope power if you want. Next tell the load including all the necessary information. Finally take the average of four five shot groups and post the results. I think most people would be satisfied with four five shot groups shot in a reasonable amount of time to guestimate the potential accuracy of the gun and load.

[felix]

Joe and Pat, I am with BA all the way in his thought process. The accuracy standard is only that which provides satisfaction to where all experimentation stops in earnest. Every gun must be shot only at the targets intended for it by the shooter at that moment. Shooting paper groups, for example, with any gun other than a BR rifle is pure nonsense to me anymore. Like Pat, my limitation in paper shooting is not the gun, but always has been me. I learned after about 4 years (hard headed) that I do not fit in the same group with folks who can read/understand what they see on the range, and this includes distance estimations close enough to master high arcing ammo. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Word to the wise- If Felix says the sky is bright red with purple polka dots, take his word for it.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm with Joe and Pat.

Showing or giving the measurements of at least 4 fairly consecutive 5 shot groups is a good measure of the load. Giving the details of the load and description of the firearm and sights would then let the reader make his own judgement as to the loads merit.

Not sure if those were short or declaritive enough sentences but it's what I look for when judging accuracy.

[felix]

Yes, Larry, what you said is perfectly good, assuming the very same shooter shooting in the Houston warehouse on the same set of "bags" at the same distance for each gun. Then you can compare with statistical authority. Bring statistics into play, the typical group, or set of groups, would have to have a count of 30 somewhere to have the confidence level high enough to say things that you read/understand from all of the targets are true. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Felix, Unfortunately most don't have access to a Houston Warehouse so we have to deal with what's been the established norm of stating the accuracy potential of what we shoot. People tell you the groups they shot all the time place and it's taken as fact as long as they're not so far out that there might be questions. One group doesn't tell you anything but four five shot groups start you in a direction and 10 shot groups tell you more. Over the course of time you'll really see what the gun, and you, are capable of if you're honest with yourself and others.

Not every gun, every person, or for that matter the same person with the same gun on a different day is going to be a great shot and there's no shame in it. Being a great shot isn't going to put food on the table or pay the bills so there's no reason to have to try to pass yourself off as one all the time. Personally I have a lot more respect for the guy that says if he does his part the gun and load are capable of shooting two inches every time than the guy that claims he could stuff a rock into a 300 Win. Magnum and shoot 1/2 inch groups on demand. Anyone who's spent any time at the range knows there's a hell of a lot more sub MOA groups shot with the keyboard than have ever been shot with a rifle, especially with cast bullets.

Pat

[Bass Ackward]

Bass it's really not all that complicated. First you tell everyone what gun you were shooting and include scope power if you want. Next tell the load including all the necessary information. Finally take the average of four five shot groups and post the results. I think most people would be satisfied with four five shot groups shot in a reasonable amount of time to guestimate the potential accuracy of the gun and load.

Pat,

Well, you are just going to have to trust me on this. When I used to post group sizes and pictures, the comments then were that wasn't the correct range or what ever. And Waksupi isn't seeing any better from machine rests evidently. That would make a sceptic outta anybody.

We post here to open minds to possibilities. To inspire others .... to try. Not to embarrass or appear to boast. I know I have learned a lot over the years. But if you really want to open minds, you don't mention accuracy lest they slam the door. Velocity figures are OK, they just think you are wacky for trying when you have jacketed bullets. And the only ones that whine and cry BS are the ones trying that ain't satisfied where they are with their progress yet. That I can live with.

If you ever want to know specifically what I am referring to, PM me and I will tell you or even take pictures if you want.

[felix]

Pat, like you say, nobody is going to be consistent enough to shoot 4 five shot groups in one sitting, right? Larry wanted to know what a certain combo will/could produce. With 95 percent confidence that the targets are not lying, then one should shoot 6 five shot groups, one each on a different day at the same range at the same time. Like Monday through Saturday at some exact time with all 30 rounds loaded during the proceeding week. Then superimpose all 30 shots onto one piece of paper, centering each group over the first. Then and only then will I say a keyboard was not involved. Most folks are not dedicated enough to do this for a bunch of statistics, and most especially me. ... felix