My Secret to HV Cast

[Bret4207]

Holy crap Pat! I thought you were down in the gutter with me and the rest of the unwashed! I'd say you should be doing some of the talking here, or elsewhere, as opposed to just asking questions. I think we've been sandbagged guys!

FWIW- My interest in this is academic mostly as I'm not a HV guy. 2000 fps with a 190gr booilt from 303 Savage or 30WCF is about the upper limit for me. But I've picked up more in this short thread, from both points of view, than I have in years of "1 hole" wallet group bragging. Keep going boys. You're doing something good here.

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,

30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet and 4895 powder. 40 grains has accuracy at 1 1/4", 41 opens, 42, is the same, 43 comes back in at about 1 3/4", 44 opens 45 opens more, 46 opens WIDE 4", 47 comes back down, 48, comes in again, and 49 grains is peek accuracy again at about 1/2". If you notice, the lower velocity only required 3 grains to open and come back in. As the pressure and friction increased the harmonic resonance of my barrel went to 6 grains variance. Change primer and that changes back to 3 grain swings but accuracy never get's below an inch.

But when I shoot jacketed, fouling and temperature alter groups. And not every bullet shoot sub MOA in my gun either. Those same 150s can be 1/2" or 1 1/2" after 20 shots.

Let's not exaggerate either. There was only about 25 or 30 in that bunch of bullets I sent you. That wasn't enough to even play around with seating depth properly little alone jump around from powder to powder. And seating depth would have made all the difference at the 2 to 3" group level. Small moves are required at those levels. Certainly, you aren't trying to tell me all factory jacketed loads shoot the same in all your guns? Why should cast be any different? But jumping around is exactly the WRONG methodology to tune with 30 cast bullets.

Larry. Here is the offer. Next spring, send me your gun and I will do it for you. And I will tell you if it's possible with that gun or not. Detailed. Coarse you pay the shipping both ways.

Pat,

Accuracy? The 2600 fps load is my summer ground hog load. Above 80 degrees firing slow its 1" for maybe 20 rounds before fouling builds. Some groups are better, some a little worse. Fired faster, it opens to maybe 2". Does the same with jacketed. It's a sporter barrel. At 50 degrees, it goes to 6" groups. I can tune that if I lighten the engrave on my bullet and thin the lube, but 4" is the best I can get at 50 degrees. Might need to harden my bullet a little.

That was what I was meaning about shooting CBA year round and shooting cool. Would invoke a hole new thought process into the cast game. It would put more variables (besides money) into the outcome. For those folks that don't know how bench rest matches are shot, care to enlighten us?

[Bass Ackward]

Dang senility.

[Pat I.]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.

Just because someone doesn't claim every group they shoot is 1/2 inch doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know what they're taking about or haven't tried a lot of the things discussed. They just know that if they say things like that and are honest with themselves the next time out they won't be able to get under an inch to save their life.

I'm not trying to usurp anyone's standings here and am willing to listen and try new ideas because what the heck is there to lose but really don't like being told I'm stupid because I don't believe in bragging. I've tried that in the past and every time ended up eating the words when put to the test.

[44man]

Bass has gone into depth with very good information and many of us have gone the route. But I still have to go with 45 2.1's way. FIT THE BOOLIT! And that goes for matching the boolit to the twist rate also so the velocity, RPM's and downrange stability (And yes, barrel vibration consistancy.) can be attained. Cast is no different then jacketed in that regard. I don't see anyone trying to get a 90 gr .223 bullet to shoot from a 1 in 12 twist or a 40 gr to shoot from a 1 in 9 twist. A 560 gr in the 45-70 with a 1 in 20 twist will give you fits too.
Most cast shooters ignore this and just buy a mold because it looks like a good boolit or someone tells him it shoots good from their rifle which might different but the same caliber.
All of what Bass explains goes for naught if you are outside the envelope to start with. Some twist rates/caliber will support a wide range of boolit lengths and can be worked with and we all know for a fact that the velocity with each is different, some can be pushed, others can't. Changing hardness, lubes, barrel vibration etc, will not make a boolit stable if the RPM's it needs to fly to all ranges can't be attained, either overspun or underspun. Once a boolit matches the gun close, then what Bass says will come into play.
All of the answers here reflect that fact.

[Bass Ackward]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.

Pat,

I think you miss the point. I have no problem with cast bullet benchrest competition. To each his own.

Cold shooting puts me on a fairly equal level with their accuracy and I can go on up with velocity. And my groups don't get wind flags or anything else. Then when it was done in competition, it would have viability and competitent people may take it farther than I have.

[45 2.1]

Now Joe sent me an email still stating he can "hit the target" at HV. Well so what...so can I and so can every one else. The point is "How well you hit the target" i.e. ACCURACY. Larry Gibson.

Ya know, I get some of those same e-mails and that isn't quite what he said. He said he got what "you" consider to be accuracy. Nor is it his style to say something like what you quoted as he is quite to the point about such things. Makes me wonder about what else has been said. I really hate to see someone miss-represented when they aren't allowed a voice in the matter.

[Larry Gibson]

Ya know, I get some of those same e-mails and that isn't quite what he said. He said he got what "you" consider to be accuracy. Nor is it his style to say something like what you quoted as he is quite to the point about such things. Makes me wonder about what else has been said. I really hate to see someone miss-represented when they aren't allowed a voice in the matter.

45 2.1

Before you question my veracity in public you should verify your facts; here is the EXACT quote from Joe's email to me that I referred to;

"Explain to me how I can push a 70 gr normal alloy water harden bullet out of my 1-7 twist AR15 at over 3100 fps and stay on the target."

Now I said "hit the target" and Joe said "stay on the target". Kindly explain to me the difference? I did not misrepresent anything Joe said. I've just had several email exchanges with him this very morning including one concerning the above quote. I emailed Joe's statement back to him and he does not deny that is what he said nor does he disagree with what I said about it. "hitting a target" or "staying on target" is not a measurement of accuracy. Joe and I agree on what is "accuracy" to us and discussed that also this morning. Lets keep this a discusion on facts, ok.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

"30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet and 4895 powder. 40 grains has accuracy at 1 1/4", 41 opens, 42, is the same, 43 comes back in at about 1 3/4", 44 opens 45 opens more, 46 opens WIDE 4", 47 comes back down, 48, comes in again, and 49 grains is peek accuracy again at about 1/2". If you notice, the lower velocity only required 3 grains to open and come back in. As the pressure and friction increased the harmonic resonance of my barrel went to 6 grains variance. Change primer and that changes back to 3 grain swings but accuracy never get's below an inch."

All that is quite correct. However, if you'll bother to read what I said; "Now I have pushed that bullet faster in the CBC rifle with slower powders (RL19 and H4831SC but the figurse remain pretty constant." Thus increasing the velocity with slower powders did not return accuracy to the 1840 fps level. Nor does increasing the powder charge of 4895. A cast bullet is deformed much more than a jacketed bullet the harder you push it and accuracy will not improve simply by pushing it harder.

"But when I shoot jacketed, fouling and temperature alter groups. And not every bullet shoot sub MOA in my gun either. Those same 150s can be 1/2" or 1 1/2" after 20 shots."

We have different expectaions of accuracy from our "accurate rifles then. I expect my rifles to hold the same level of accuracy over a reasonable number of shots. That would be 110 shots for my match rifles and at least 50 shots for varmint rifles. With my hunting '06s if they won't hold consistant accuracy for 20 shots with quality jacketed hunting bullets then the barrel is bad or the componants are wrong.

"Let's not exaggerate either. There was only about 25 or 30 in that bunch of bullets I sent you. That wasn't enough to even play around with seating depth properly little alone jump around from powder to powder. And seating depth would have made all the difference at the 2 to 3" group level. Small moves are required at those levels. Certainly, you aren't trying to tell me all factory jacketed loads shoot the same in all your guns? Why should cast be any different? But jumping around is exactly the WRONG methodology to tune with 30 cast bullets."

No exaggeration here at all. Perhaps our memories are not what we think they are. So to check I went to my records (I keep records of all shots fired over my chronograph and have done so since the mid '70s when I got my first Oehler) to check. I count 162 shots fired over the screens. That does not include some I just fired for group. My meory says you sent two batches of bullets to me. My records document considerably more than "25 or 30 to play with" and I still have 20 left (want a picture of them?). It appears my memory is not at fault. Perhaps the "exaggeration" lies elswhere? I also loaded and followed you specific instructions so If I was "jumping around" it was using your methollogy. However at the time I felt we were progressing following good time proven sequence and your methollogy was correct. Perhaps we were wrong.

"Larry. Here is the offer. Next spring, send me your gun and I will do it for you. And I will tell you if it's possible with that gun or not. Detailed. Coarse you pay the shipping both ways."

Great offer but let me counter with this; the wife and I plan on doing some traveling now that I'm retired and when I finish with my contract training. How about I just come back there and we give the rifle a try? I'm sure there are some good RV parks around there?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

Before you question my veracity in public you should verify your facts; here is the EXACT quote from Joe's email to me that I referred to;

"Explain to me how I can push a 70 gr normal alloy water harden bullet out of my 1-7 twist AR15 at over 3100 fps and stay on the target."

Now I said "hit the target" and Joe said "stay on the target". Kindly explain to me the difference? I did not misrepresent anything Joe said. I've just had several email exchanges with him this very morning including one concerning the above quote. I emailed Joe's statement back to him and he does not deny that is what he said nor does he disagree with what I said about it. "hitting a target" or "staying on target" is not a measurement of accuracy. Joe and I agree on what is "accuracy" to us and discussed that also this morning. Lets keep this a discusion on facts, ok.

Larry Gibson

Larry-
I have the complete e-mail and its subject was not group shooting. It was a test to see if he could duplicate the bending boolit scenario from Waksupi's pure tin boolit 6.5mm boolit. He shot it from an AR with a 7"twist, the boolit being a long 70 gr. 22 boolit. Surely a more severe test of RPM stability. Takeing one sentence out of a post and representing it in this manner is not a factual thing....! If anyone wants to see the e-mail as proof, I will e-mail it to them. I stand by my first statement that it didn't sound like something Joe would say. Things out of context often do sound like that. Your facts were misrepresented on this.

[Pat I.]

Pat, Cold shooting puts me on a fairly equal level with their accuracy and I can go on up with velocity. And my groups don't get wind flags or anything else. Then when it was done in competition, it would have viability and competitent people may take it farther than I have.

Well then it seems you can do something I haven't been able to do successfully and I applaud and respect you for for it but since this is turning into another pissing contest and I said in another post I'm not going to get inolved in another pissing contest I'm outa here.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

I really don’t think we should continue this side bar discussion to this thread. I just received an email from Joe where in he included that paragraph and his explanation to what he really meant. Joe and I are in agreement over what I said though we still disagree a bit on rpm’s effect on cast bullets. I don't understand why you are in disagreement. Here is Joe's last sentance of that email, It should end this side bar.

“You did, in my opinion, present my statement as an accuracy statement, not as a Waksupi bend the bullet fly off into wonderland test, which is 100 percent” (Joe did not finish the sentence)

Should you want to continue a discussion of rpm's effects (or non effect) on cast or jacketed bullets then I am game. However if you want to continue with a pissing contest then I am not for that game. I, like Pat I will be "outa here".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

My apologies, I have 26 of your LBT bullets left. I found another 6 with the heavy coat of white mica.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.

Just because someone doesn't claim every group they shoot is 1/2 inch doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know what they're taking about or haven't tried a lot of the things discussed. They just know that if they say things like that and are honest with themselves the next time out they won't be able to get under an inch to save their life.

I'm not trying to usurp anyone's standings here and am willing to listen and try new ideas because what the heck is there to lose but really don't like being told I'm stupid because I don't believe in bragging. I've tried that in the past and every time ended up eating the words when put to the test.

Pat- If you were under the impression I was blasting you, thats wrong. I was really impressed with the groups you got at such high velocity. I figured you should be more forthcoming if you can shoot groups like that at speed. But, as you said, I see this is deteriorating like the other threads. Too bad. It was going good and I thought we were really getting someplace.

[Pat I.]

Bret,

What I wrote was in no way shape or form directed at you. In fact the only reason I looked back here was because you posted something and I wanted to see what you had to say.

To set something straight I'm no expert and never played one on TV. I don't know any more than anyone else on this forum and when it comes to getting handguns or military rifles shooting probably know less. I can't shoot like those targets all the time and don't claim to. Some days are good some days are bad. If someone asked me what kind of groups I shoot with HVY guns I'd probably say in the 6s and 7s because if I added up every group I ever shot and averaged them that's probably what I'd get. I'm not a good wind doper even with flags and no matter what anyone claims wind has a big effect on group size. I think some of my barrels are capable of a lot better than what I can do with them but it's me behind the butt so that doesn't mean squat.

Since you wrote directly to me I'm going to pose a question directly to you. Why is it people always shoot either 1 inch or 1/2 groups? Why doesn't anyone ever shoot 3/8ths, 3/4, or 7/16th? This has perplexed me for years and maybe you can answer it for me because I have a heck of a time shooting 1/2 groups no matter what I do. (imagine there's a little smiley face here because the damned button won't work)

Pat

[Bret4207]

Why is it people always shoot either 1 inch or 1/2 groups? Why doesn't anyone ever shoot 3/8ths, 3/4, or 7/16th? This has perplexed me for years and maybe you can answer it for me because I have a heck of a time shooting 1/2 groups no matter what I do. (imagine there's a little smiley face here because the damned button won't work)

Pat[/QUOTE]

Simple my good man. 95% of the groups reported are measured with a Mod. 1 eyeball which is calibrated by guess and by gosh with a good dose of ego thrown in to lubricate the whole works. I've often been amazed at the way some of my 1 1/4" groups become much closer to 1" with the proper application of foggy memory and competitive lie telling 'round the ol' pot bellied stove. Not that we LIE mind you, we just round down to the nearest common denominator. This is based on my experience as a World Famous Ballistician, Crime Fighter and All 'Round Good Guy.

Truthfully? I think there a bit of truth in preceding paragraph. But mostly I'd say guys look at the 1" target squares and approximate. I have measured a few with a dial caliper and to be honest, calling a 1.610 group "about 1 1/2" is good enough for me. An honest half inch group from any production rifle, cast or jacketed, is something to be remembered. Mind you thats at least 5 shot groups for me, 10 shots are the real test and if you back things off to 200 yards and do 5-10 shot groups you really separate the wheat from the chaff. I've only done that a couple times. Generally you'll be pretty sad when it's over.

Add in a little personal pride and stubbornness, plus the magic of the accurizing keyboard, and you get a 7/8" group that gets called "about 1/2" or the 5 shot 1 3/8" plus group with 2 flyers that get discounted and the best of 3 gets called 1/2".

Human nature pal. Human nature.

[Pat I.]

Thanks for the explanation and I'll retire a little wiser tonite.

Two happy looking fellas toasting each other with a couple of frosty mugs of ice cold beer. (damn buttons still won't work)

[Ricochet]

Like this one?

[Pat I.]

that's the one but my mugs are a little bigger and the beer much colder.

[dubber123]

Pat, I shot a 7/8" 6 shot group yesterday out of my "el cheapo" Savage 219. 4 were in an honest 1/4" center to center. The other two ruined it. And it was only 50 yards. I was still happy. I've shot very few 100 yard 1" groups . If every gun I had would do that I'd be blessed for sure.