45 ACP Rimmed VS 45 ACP Straight?

[dbosman]

One advantage for the rimmed cases in a suitable revolver, is significantly stouter loads. Handloader magazine has done at least two articles over the years regarding heavier bullets, and magnum loads.

[megasupermagnum]

Can 45 ACP rimmed brass be loaded to 45 super levels? That might be fun.

[M-Tecs]

Can 45 ACP rimmed brass be loaded to 45 super levels? That might be fun.

45 Super brass is thicker primarily due to the unsupported areas of the original chamber. With a revolver that is not a issue. The issue (for the most part) is not the strength of the brass but the strength of the firearm.

[AaronL]

Don,

I see you are from Mid-Missouri. Starline is in Sedalia, MO. When I buy new brass, I drive the 1 hour to Starline and buy it directly from them. They are very friendly. Next door to Starline is Sierra Bullets. They give free tours and it is well worth the time. Sierra also sells blem bullets for a very reasonable price

I would recommend the trip since you are in Mid-Missouri.

Aaron

[Treetop]

oldsalt444, where did you find speed loaders for the auto-rim? I would like to have at least a couple of them. Thanks, james

TNsailorman, I bought mine from Midway USA years ago. I believe they are HKS brand speed loaders. Semper Fi, Treetop

[scattershot]

The Auto Rim cartridge is a great solution for those who don’t want to use the moon clips, but the 1917 was designed for them, and was the original speedloader. Just food for thought.

[Outpost75]

Interesting wrinkle is that many of the 1914 British WW1 Purchase Colt New Service .455 revolvers were later shipped to Canada in the 1920s and rechambered for .45 Colt, for use by the RCMP in the western provinces and northwest territories, whereas in the eastern and maritime provinces they kept the orginal .455 Eley chambering. You occasionally come across these guns on auction sites which have both WW1 military proofs and regimental markings, and also RCMP property marks.

This modification was done without facing off the rear of the cylinder to adjust for the difference in rim thickness between .45 at .060" and .455 at .039" because doing so would have required required changing out the frame lug to fit the shortened cylinder. The Cdn. engineers at the government arsenal wanted to make the .45 Colt conversion for the RCMP in the least expensive and most expedient way.

Therefore most Cdn. .455 New Service revolvers which were arsenal rechambered to .45 Colt will have a slight counterbore of .512" diameter only about .020" deep to properly headspace the .45 Colt cartridges as used by the RCMP. But .455 cartridges having the usual .530-.535" rim diameter will bridge across the smaller diameter of the .45 Colt counterbore, and so will have correct headspace and head clearance when inserted into the rechambered, but unfaced original cylinder.

In those 1920s Cdn. arsenal rechambered New Service revolvers you can use either .45 Colt ammunition, .455 Mk.1 or Mk2 or .455 Colt or .476 Eley as "shorts."

A versatile revolver indeed! VERY MUCH more useful for the shooter, as rechambered .455s will sell for about $100 less than an unaltered WW1 British/Cdn. proofed .455 New Service.

Attachment 255770

[35 Whelen]

I have a S&W 1917 ex military revolver chambered in 45 ACP and have been using the "moon clips" to load it. Since the pistol was designed for rimmed cartridges and not the straight-wall types, I was thinking of purchasing some of the Rimmed 45 ACP brass that is available from Star Line. What is everyone's opinion of the use of straight wall or rimmed 45 ACP cases? Is it worth the expense of purchasing the rimmed cases? Are they easier to use then the moon clipped cases? Do you recommend them?

I shoot a Colt Gov't Model Series 70 45 ACP and also have a couple of 1917's. I also use both types of brass. As others have said, one doesn't have to use the moon clips as they really are a pain to load and unload and it's fairly simple to just pluck ACP empties from the chambers with ones fingernail. I keep a few moon clips loaded with SD loads and for when I'm out and about so I can drop one or two in my pocket.

I use AR brass pretty much exclusively for heavier hunting loads.





As others have said, the 45 Auto Rim came out a few years (ca. 1920) after the 1917 revolvers.

For data, I HIGHLY recommend Handloader No. 306 in which there are over 400 .45 AR loads, or one can subscribe to www.loaddata.com and access those loads and lots more.

35W

[9.3X62AL]

I have use for both 45 Auto Rim brass and for full-moon clips. The steel clips get used to contain my factory carry ammo; the Auto Rim gets the call for most other usages.

In times past I had a late-70s-built S&W Model 25-2, which I enjoyed but fought with over its GENEROUS throat specs and snug lands & grooves. It lasted about a year before I tired of its moodiness. About 2 months ago I bought a new S&W PC Model 625, and it is SUPERB. Dimensions are great, .452"-sized bullets shoot accurately (200-265 grains), and Life Is Good. I am slowly re-accumulating clips (steel and polymer RIMZ), the tools to deal with the clips and secured 200 Starline AR cases. The consensus among competitors and recreational shooters is that steel clips are the gold standard if (A) the arm is going in harm's way and (B) you want to carry mass-market factory ammo in 45 ACP. That is my particular interest, because I do use the 625 for CCW and open carry, and need to have my old shop's duty rounds on board if the balloon goes up. Some of the boutique ammomakers put out some interesting 45 Auto Rim ammo, FWIW. I use HKS speedloaders with the Auto Rim cases while hunting or playing, and swap in the clipped duty stuff when I return to civilization--1 in the cylinder, 2 in the speedloader belt baskets.

Suit yourself and your needs, just know that a lot of options exist for sport shooters and self-defenders. The RIMZ clips are easy to fit ammo into, but won't contain the rounds if the clip gets dropped on the ground. Steel clips retain rounds if dropped (most of the time), but are subject to getting bent either when dropped or during attachment/removal of rounds. A BENT CLIP WILL DISABLE YOUR SIDEARM. Steel clips ARE A PITA--but they have a valid place in The Big Picture. If they serve a need for you, get the tools to attach/remove ammo with. You'll thank me later.

So far, I have run the Lee 200 grain SWC--the Lee 230 grain TC--and Lyman's #454424 SWC that scales @ 259 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. These have all shot well for me, and I have a Lyman #452423 awaiting attention and a casting session. These run about 230-240 grains as-cast, depending upon era made, mould cherry used, and whatever poetry Lyman is reading on the day the blocks were finished. Lyman moulds are like old Duesenberg automobiles......"No two are alike". We will see what falls out.

I don't have plans to "maximize performance" with the 625. There are two 44 Magnum wheelguns in the gun safe, both Rugers--and a 45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk right next to those. Those 200 grainers at 750 FPS were a docile delight; the 260 grain Keith SWC at 800-825 FPS won't do anything it connects with on 2 or 4 legs a bit of good at the usual 45 ACP speed limits. Even with FMJ/RN hardball, the 45 ACP's reputation as a felon disincentivizer precedes it. My shop's carry ammo (WWB 230 grain JHP) works wonderfully on clients who have chosen to exchange finality with our deputies. The recovered bullets look like ad copy for Winchester ammunition.

[DonMountain]

Don,

I see you are from Mid-Missouri. Starline is in Sedalia, MO. When I buy new brass, I drive the 1 hour to Starline and buy it directly from them. They are very friendly. Next door to Starline is Sierra Bullets. They give free tours and it is well worth the time. Sierra also sells blem bullets for a very reasonable price

I would recommend the trip since you are in Mid-Missouri.

Aaron

I toured both the Starline and the Sierra plants in Sedalia a couple of years ago, when my wife took me there for a surprise visit for my birthday. I did purchase some factory reject bullets from the Sierra plant and they shot pretty well for me. But from the factory, Starline only sells brass in 500 round boxes with free shipping. And its no cheaper for me to drive that hour to the factory and burn all the gas to pay the same price for them. And for my old "collector" grade guns I usually don't need 500 new brass. Especially if I just want to try them out. I can ride up to Grafs in Mexico, Missouri in a little less time and purchase just 100 rounds of brass in zip-lock bags to try out for about the same money as I would have to pay at the Starline factory per round. So, thats what I did based on all of your recommendations. Yesterday I bought 200 casings of 45 ACP Rimmed and the new shell holder to reload them. And I already have about 1000 RCBS 45 201 grain semi wadcutters all cast up and sized and ready to load in these new cases.

[slam45]

Could anyone spare a single 45 rimmed case for me to try in my unaltered Blackhawk convertible?

you need cowboy special (starline's name for it) with 45 Colt rim thickness, auto rim cases will not fit in the blackhawk that is stock...

[Tatume]

I don't have a Blackhawk convertible to examine, but I strongly suspect that the Auto Rim cartridge will not fit.

The Starline 45 Cowboy cases will work in a revolver that is correctly chambered for 45 ACP. The 45 Cowboy, 45 Auto Rim, and the 45 ACP cases are all 0.898" long. The Cowboy and ACP will headspace on the case mouth, as the ACP was designed to do. The Cowboy will extract from a S&W Model 625. I had to be sure before I posted this, so I tried them in two Model 625 revolvers.

There's still no reason to bother with them in a Blackhawk w/ 45 ACP cylinder, as it extracts the ACP cartridge just fine. In fact, it has the most positive of all extractors.

[azrednek]

Mr. DonMountain- You will likely find that there is very little difference in the performance of your revolver whether you use straight-walled .45 ACP case with moon clips or the .45 Auto-Rim cases. Actually the weapon was originally modified from a standard cylinder revolver as a stopgap solution so that it could be used by the military in WWI with .45 ACP ammo, the supply of Government Model 1911 pistols being short at the time. Auto-Rim cartridge cases came much later and are the ones I like to load up (you will need a special cartridge holder for your loading press because of the rim thickness of the cases). Carrying some .45 ACP cartridges in your moon clips gives you a very quick reload of the cylinder either way.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Years ago I spent much time and experimenting with 45ACP and 45 AR. If there is a difference in accuracy between the two types of brass. It has to be very insignificant as I couldn’t see a difference in three different 45ACP S&W revolvers. The only time I saw a difference and accuracy go slightly south was using a hodge-podge of ACP mixed head stamped brass. I also had the same insignificant results with either Remington or Starline AR brass.

I was fortunate buying up moon clips years ago. Often paying as little as a nickel going through junk boxes at gun shows. I love the convenance of carrying a bunch of pre loaded moon clips to the range. I do all my mooning and de-mooning at home. At the range if I run out of clipped ammo. It’s easier and a lot quicker to use my finger nails to do the extraction.

Regardless of brass, type of bullet or lead pot formula. A 200 gr slug of any type, home or commercial cast, jacketed or swaged on top of 4.0 Bullseye with any brand of standard primer. Printed the tightest clusters imaginable. A close second for me is the 220gr SAECO button nosed wadcutters. Not really important but I’ve heard some hand loaders refer or comment on 45AR with the nick name “Stumpy”.

As a side note, it will be a very cold day in Hades before I ever buy a box of Remington factory 45AR again. Dealer wanted $53.95 for a box of 50 with 230gr LRN slug.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I spent a lot of months playing with 45AR and could talk about it for an entire afternoon. Its my second favorite hand loaded cartridge next to 41 Mag.

[azrednek]

To me, it’s definitely worth getting some to try out. You won’t waste your money. I prefer the auto-rim in my 1917. You can just use ACP load data.

For what it’s worth. I’ve seen a couple of older, likely 70’s loading manuals giving a .5 boost to the ACP max load of 5.0 of Bullseye to 5.5 for AR. However I rarely even go max in my near antique 1917’s. No need to push it in order to punch holes in paper.

[tazman]

I do all my mooning and de-mooning at home.

It is much more convenient to do your mooning at home. The only drawback is the Dems on the television that I am mooning can't see it.

[TNsailorman]

Thanks for the heads up Treetop. Your comment and another one got me to thinking and I started rummaging thru some of my old stuff left over my competition days(long, long ago) and I found 4 of the old HKS Speed Loader for the .45 AR. I am good to go now. Thanks guys, james

[Treetop]

Thanks for the heads up Treetop. Your comment and another one got me to thinking and I started rummaging thru some of my old stuff left over my competition days(long, long ago) and I found 4 of the old HKS Speed Loader for the .45 AR. I am good to go now. Thanks guys, james

Yes TNsailorman, HKS speed Loaders, not H-K like I said. That didn't look exactly right when I typed it. I'm going to edit my original post right now to read "HKS". Thanks, Treetop

[StrawHat]

A tool for removing cases or cartridges from moon clips is fairly easy to make from a piece of tubing. Cut/file one end to leave about a 1/16” lip, roughly 3/8” wide at the end of the pipe. Slip over the case and twist. The lip catches on the clip and the case pops loose.

A loading tool is slightly harder to make but still easy. A board, lever, bolt, nut and a couple of washers. Pictures are available online, maybe YouTube.

I have made several of each to help with the ACP revolvers I own.

I also use the Auto Rim cartridge but my preference is the ACP. I do not use a self loader, so all my loads are suitable for the revolvers. My revolvers span from 1918 through the 21st century so I keep loads seperate for the newest ones that can handle more pressure. My 1917s get hard ball equivalent only.

Never tried RIMZ yet. On the to-do list.

Kevin

[TNsailorman]

I read or heard many years ago about some guy who made a tool for loading the .45ACP cartridges into the moon clip. He took a pair of Sears channel locks, ground the teeth of to smooth, fastened a couple of thick pads of leather to the jaws ( whether he glued or riveted them I don't remember). Then all he had to do was finger start a couple of cartridges on opposing sides to a moon clip and then finish loading with the altered channel locks. I haven't tried that myself but it something to consider. The price hat is asked for the tools to load moon clips is way above their convenience. I made 2 of the de-mooning tubes way back in the early 80's using the same method that Strawhat describes in his post but on mine I closed the end by having a friend weld a cap on a 1/2" tube and cut the tube long enough to hold 6 empty .45ACP cases. I cut a 1/8" off half the circumference of the open end of the tube to go over the rim to twist the empty case out of the moon clip. I them bored a blank plastic screwdriver handle to fit the closed end of the tube into and epoxied it into place. Works like a charm. My son-in-law did most of this work as he had access to boring machine and welding that I didn't have. De-mooning is not too much trouble at all with a tool like these but re-mooning is still a chore and leaves the finger sore if not done right. Lately I have been going more and more to the AR brass to get away from the sore fingers. my experience anyway, james

[StrawHat]

[QUOTE=TNsailorman;4818741]...I read or heard many years ago about some guy who made a tool for loading the .45ACP cartridges into the moon clip. He took a pair of Sears channel locks... james...[QUOTE]

James,

I read this two months ago. It nagged at me but I finally got my biggest chall locks out and son of a gun, it works. You do have to fiddle with the first pair to raise the clip into the extractor groove but i foun a suitably thick washer and WOW it does a nice job. Ext I am going to figure a way to mount it to a board so i need just one hand to run it.

Kevin