44-77 sharps?

[Yellowhouse]

YH,

What is the bore diameter of your original roll? Those old rollers can have some pretty stout rifling.

I remember right its at .442. The rifling is very shallow compared modern. I'll have to re-slug as I lost my notebook

[Distant Thunder]

Ok, it's a 2-D bullet! That makes sense. I thought he was for some reason going with a more or less groove diameter. I believe I have some of your 2-D bullets, Don. Yep that will work. I'd have to go back and reread all the posts, my memory doesn't always work and when it does it can't always be trusted. It's a good thing I'm not really old,... yet!

[Lead pot]

Ok, it's a 2-D bullet! That makes sense. I thought he was for some reason going with a more or less groove diameter. I believe I have some of your 2-D bullets, Don. Yep that will work. I'd have to go back and reread all the posts, my memory doesn't always work and when it does it can't always be trusted. It's a good thing I'm not really old,... yet!

and it gets worse when you get up to 81

[Yellowhouse]

I was a little surprised myself. From what I've read, I expected groove diameter to be around .450" or larger. The bore is in pretty nice condition too.

Does that barrel have 5 lands and grooves....it should if its original.

[Yellowhouse]

Distant Thunder

Inside diameter of fired case in original roller is .442

Diameter of same in standard chambered Shiloh is .4465

[Distant Thunder]

Distant Thunder

Inside diameter of fired case in original roller is .442

Diameter of same in standard chambered Shiloh is .4465

Yellowhouse,

So the case would accept a bore diameter bullet (or close to it), but not a groove diameter bullet. This is something that I've wondered about every time I read that someone has one of these original .44-77 that has a groove diameter that is way bigger than any bullet they can chamber. Were these originals chamber that way for using paper patch bullets?

I have a .45-70 that is chambered with that idea in mind. It shoots pretty well. You could not chamber a bullet larger than .452 at most.

I believe Sharps only loaded paper patch bullets in their .44-77s. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Did Remington offer a grease groove bullets loaded for the .44-77? All the old pictures I've seen of .44-2 1/4 cartridges have been loaded with paper patch bullets. Very interesting.

[ndnchf]

Does that barrel have 5 lands and grooves....it should if its original.

Yes it does. It is the original barrel.

[reinert]

When I put my order in to Steve, we had a good visit on what I wanted for the mould. He suggested the dual dia. bullet as the rifle was going to be used primarily for hunting, and so he thought the DD might allow me a couple of extra shots, if needed, shooting dirty. Hopefully, that might could work out once I get familiar and confident in the PP reloads and figure out what the old gun likes. I also know that all wads, compression and cookies need to be confined in the case neck. Most of all, I just want to have fun with this great old rifle, and will do my best to figure a good PP load. If need be, though, and while working on paper patch, I know the gun shoots quite well with the Brooks GG bullet I've got. I did make a good shot on a whitetail doe last fall at around 70 yds. Through both ribs and out on a perfect broadside pose. She went about 30 yds. and gave up the ghost. Looking forward to next season already, hopefully using a PP round. Thanks again for sharing info. Probably need some more as I go along here.

BTW, Don, the dummy round I made up that I've got on my desk right now looks a lot like yours... but that's certainly as far as that goes at this point. Also, I asked Steve to put a bit of meplat on the bullet, and since it's a nose pour, it came out to be right at 1/8." Should be a great hunting bullet.

[Don McDowell]

reinert, with that bullet, set on top of 77 grs of the old Express 2f, a .030 fiber wad and one of the muzzle loader original dry lubed felt wads, expose portion of the patch wiped with a bit of jojoba oil, then wiped off with a dry towel, you can shoot a lot of rounds with just blowing in the breech. I used that combination once at the BPTR nationals, at 200 yards wiped with a patch on a brush every 5th shot, and blowtubed between the rest I fired a 97 2x, and should of been a 100x3, but someone pulled the trigger just about the time the sights settled on the last shot, and it came up a 7... LOL
That bullet will knock the bejeebers out of elk, and antelope, never have shot a deer with it.

Jim I'm thinking I gave you a pretty good bunch of the bullets when I was there at Lodi.

[Distant Thunder]

Don, you did give me several different kinds of pp bullets to try including some of those 2-D bullets and some .45 2-D bullets.

The .45 bullets I will try one of these days in my old .45-70 that is the only BPCR I own that has refused to play nice with paper patch. I have not tried a 2-D bullet in it but those you gave me should work if anything is ever going to. I just need to get at it.

I had planned to try the 2-D .44s this winter when I was working on a hunting load for my .44-2 1/4, I believe I have 15 or 17 of those. I didn't want to try them until I had some idea of a working hunting load and I was getting close to getting that working when this new Metford design mold came. That bullet started shooting very well right out of the gate. Then the Shiloh postal match kicked off and I got all caught up in that. I've taken that about as far as I can until warm weather and some matches start where I can shoot some distance and refine my fouling control with this .44, which I think I've got figured out.

I should have gone back to the hunting load development but somehow I picked up my Ruger #1 .375 H&H and a nice little 300 grain paper patch mold I made a few years go and never got around to trying. The bullet is along the original Sharps LR paper patch design. It looks pretty cool sitting in those long .375 cases. I'm not trying to hotrod them just pushing them at about 1500 fps.

So the .375 H&H is just sitting there while the temps have dropped into the single digits for daytime highs and minus double digits for the over night lows! Too dang cold to shoot much, my fingers stiffen up real quick and I can tell if I'm pulling the trigger or not! I'll get to the .44 hunting loads again, I'd like to use that rifle this fall for deer.

I've got too many projects started and waiting their turn to be finished or at least moved along some. What's a man to do.

And now with the primer and powder shortage I'm not really wanting to just shoot up too much of what I have. When things ease up a bit I'll feel better about shooting just for fun.

[Don McDowell]

Jim that 45 dd can be a really good one, or sometimes the rifle says *** is that...
I hear ya on the projects, we built about 350 ft of buck rail fence this fall/winter when the weather was nice enough to play out side, just about have a chunk of corral fence rebuilt. If it doesn't snow to much tonite I plan to run into town to pickup some rough cut lumber , and posts.. Every time it's been fit enough to be outside, there's been other stuff to do, and still haven't fired a round thru my new 44-77. Looks like highs in the teens next week, and my gosh this has been a windy winter. Nice to be retired tho. LOL

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I have to say that being retired is the best job I've ever had!

I was building a new storage shed for firewood and my UTV and wood splitter plus a few other things that need to be under cover, but with the turn to real winter and bitter cold having settled in I'm planning on working indoors until this passes. I'm still stuck dismantling my shop and hauling junk to the transfer station (dump) but when I finish that, if I ever finish that, I should be free to work on my projects. Well, other than keeping up with maintaining everything around the house. That's never ending!

I am looking forward to shooting this 17 twist .44-2 1/4 this year in a few matches. Match schedules are slow in coming out so it is hard to say when and were.

[Don McDowell]

It is really nice to look out the window on mornings like this with snow on the ground more coming , wind and fog,10* temp, and realize I don't have to go load feed and find a bunch of old cows huddled up in a draw somewhere or get them called out of the pine trees to get them fed.
Alliance has their schedule out, BPTRA has their national matches on the schedule, and the Wy State midrange date is set but entry forms haven't come out yet. I did see where the Creedmoor 150 has set a date in late October.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well that 44 will shoot at distance. If the drawing gods don't smile on me for moose again for about the 50th time this year, I may mount up soul sights and a Baldwin or DT front on this rifle and let it and the 77 split times going to what ever matches I can make when I don't go fishing.

[Yellowhouse]

Yellowhouse,

So the case would accept a bore diameter bullet (or close to it), but not a groove diameter bullet. This is something that I've wondered about every time I read that someone has one of these original .44-77 that has a groove diameter that is way bigger than any bullet they can chamber. Were these originals chamber that way for using paper patch bullets?

I have a .45-70 that is chambered with that idea in mind. It shoots pretty well. You could not chamber a bullet larger than .452 at most.

I believe Sharps only loaded paper patch bullets in their .44-77s. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Did Remington offer a grease groove bullets loaded for the .44-77? All the old pictures I've seen of .44-2 1/4 cartridges have been loaded with paper patch bullets. Very interesting.

Jim, I'm not aware of any greasers available until UMC came around in the 80's. All I see in Sellers and Marcots books were PPB. Probably were some early on but the fact remains Remington designed their rifles for tight chambered paper patch bullets.

Conversely the 50 and 45-70 govt were built for greasers first for the military. Factories offered paper patch loads later for sporting rifles. There were a few Rollers made in 45-70...wonder what the chambers on them look like? For that matter the Sharps

[Don McDowell]

The sharps catalogs do list a naked with 2 cannelures bullet for the 44's.

[Distant Thunder]

Yellowhouse,

That is what I have been thinking for a while, that the rollers and Sharps in .44-2 1/4 were set up for paper patch. I wonder if any other rifles for other cartridges were set up like this? .44-90? Any of the .40s?

I like the idea that the .44-2 1/4 was solely a pp bullet shooter! That's what I load in mine and it looks so COOL that way!

Now the other thing I'd like to know is, what twist rates did Sharps and Remington use in their .44-2 1/4 rifles? Anyone here know the answer to that?

They did not offer any really long (heavy) bullets in the .44-2 1/4. Sharps offered 380 and 405 grains paper patch loads only. Remington?

Sharps did go much heavier in their offerings for .44-2 5/8, 450 and 500 grain (hunting loads) and heavier for Creedmoor loads. How heavy I do not know.

The interesting thing to me is that they chambered rifles specifically for paper patch only. Tight chambers that are mistakenly called "loose groove diameter" today.

Thanks!

[Distant Thunder]

The sharps catalogs do list a naked with 2 cannelures bullet for the 44's.

What diameter were those "naked" bullets? Weights? Lengths? I need more information please!

I am assuming you're saying these were unloaded bullets?

[reinert]

Don,

I've got some of those "lubed," wool wads I use in my .44 Remington C&B revolver. Would those be worth a try? I know you mentioned the "dry" lubed wads; just wondering about what I have on hand to try out first. I used 1.5 fg Swiss in my hunting load with the Brooks GG bullet I have, and as I mentioned, it's a good hunting round. I also have the good ol' standard GOEX 2f I've used in both m.l.s and my Shilohs with fine, if a bit more dirty, success. Hard to beat that old standard. I've also got some OE 1.5 fg on hand to try out, too. And though just starting down this PP trail, I'll no doubt try the cookie business in the ongoing process at some point; never messed (pun intended?) with that b.p.c.r. part of reloads before. So, once I get the bullet factory set up again, and pour some of those slick missiles out of my new mould, I'll practice rolling the Seth Cole 55 cuts on the bullet Steve made me for the example from my mould. There's also a bullet in the mould he left there, sprue and all, for me to mess with too. I would imagine the mould is ready to go for heat without any additional prep, right from the maker. Steve also put a note in the box suggesting to use a 30:1 alloy for the bullet. I've been using 20:1 in all my GG bullets right along, with good success; too hard for PP? May try a few just because (what's in the pot for alloy at the present). Again, many thanks for this thread, and to all "in the know" on PP for sharing all the great info. Keep it going, especially for all us newbies learning to paper patch, proper.

One last question here: Would the SPG "Tropic" be a good choice for the lube cookie? Or a homemade recipe anyone could share? My GG bullet lube, which I prepare myself, wouldn't be stiff enough to make a good cookie (at least I don't think so; may try it). For what I plan for the old Remington's ammo, a pound of anything I'd buy commercially, would last me a long, long time. But on the same token, I like making my own stuff when I can, just because.

[Don McDowell]

They say the bullets weighed 297, you could get them as components , or in loaded ammunition.

[Don McDowell]

reinert, yes the 44 caliber muzzle loader original felt wads work great in the 44 and 45 caliber rifles, and if you mess with a 40 caliber rifle their 36 caliber wads work very well.
As for grease cookies, I don't know about that SPG tropic, seems a bit hard for that. Regular SPG, or DGL etc that are fairly soft. Melt some down, put some spent primers in the bottom of a small cookie sheet, and pour the melted lube in to the top of the primers. Let it cool, then take a charged case with the wad set on top of the charge and push the case thru the sheet of lube. Set your thin wad on top and seat it and the grease cookie with a muzzle loader short starter. Seat the the bullet and go.
If you look at the old recipes that used beeswax and spermicciti , just substitute jojoba for the spermiciiti.
75 grs of OE 1 1/2 is a good starter load.
For the majority of the 44 bullets I patch with a patch 3/4 inch wide.