44-77 sharps?

[ndnchf]

I opened up the test practice case with a .445" expander, then ran it into the 43 Mauser sizer with no expander installed. The neck ID is now .442". So there is .004" difference between this and the same case run through the 43 Spanish die with a .438" expander. This all good data to have in hand when I start patching

[Distant Thunder]

YH,

What is the bore diameter of your original roll? Those old rollers can have some pretty stout rifling.

[ndnchf]

The original barrel? I don't know, never measured it. Since it had a damaged chamber, I didn't do much with it.

[Lead pot]

The thing with the originals especially the Rollers and Hepburns the bore and groove diameters are larger than the Sharps.
I had two original rifle chamber casts made from rifles documented that were used for the Creedmoor matches, one was with the Remington Special that was a bottlenecked case shorter then the Sharps .44-90 and the groove diameter was .452" with a .446" bore diameter. The other was the .44-2-5/8" that was a Rolling block that had a .442/450 bore groove with a 3.5º chamber end into the throat and this one I sent to PT&G to make a reamer with the cast dimensions but I had them change it for the .438"/.446 with a 4º transition and had the case neck dimensions reduced accordingly and the .438 patched bullet will not fall from the fired case holding it upside down.
With the bottle necked cases, both the .44-77's and the .44-90's I tend to seat deeper than the straight walled cases but I keep the wads no less then 1/8" to 3/16" above the shoulder in the neck and the ladder loads V out with the bullet usually held 3/16".
I personally don't see a problem with my 19 twist .44-77 and .44-90bn shooting a 1.4" long bullet. The .44-90 bn 19 twist will shoot an elliptical very well at the 1K line but the .44-77 needs to have the blunter nosed like the original Sharps bullet profile and it will shoot well as far as the barrel sights will reach. I have sent a lot of rounds down range at the Quigley and the Mt. 1000 seeing how they perform out of the 19 twist .44-77 and the 90. But like I said the larger capacity case of the 19 twist .44-90 bn does just as well as both of may 17 and one 16 twist .44-77 and the .44-90bn.
Ogive profile makes a big difference with performance. I will shoot a blunter nosed bullet over a sleek long nosed bullet anytime, and I have both types.

[Lead pot]

This is the bullet profile I use in the 19 twist .44-77
Sharps offered a 300 gr to 475 gr 1.39/128" long swaged. close to 1 5/16" I just like the Sharps profile.


This is what the 16, 17 and 19 twist .44-90 bn shoots well. I don't know for sure if sharps used the 19 or 22 twist in their rifles. I been looking and asked collectors what the ROT was and I always got the shrug of the shoulders
Sharps offered a 1.13/32" long bullet for the .44-2-5/8bn at 520 gr. swaged


The top cast is the Shiloh Rifle chamber cast and the bottom is the cloned Remington chamber cast.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the clarification Don.

Deeper seating depth - ok. I'll have to determine the depth after I get the bullets. I'll be using .030" card wads and probably not use a grease cookie, but maybe a dry lube wad. I'll wipe between shots.

The muzzle loader original dry lubed felt wads work good for me. The 44 caliber wads for the 44 and 45 caliber rifles. The 36 cal wads work great in 40 caliber rifles.

[Don McDowell]

Another vote for the .43 Mauser die to tighten up.

Don, was that Creedmoor bullet straight sided or tapered?

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.

Sam it's a the atypical tapered Sharps bullet. The taper isn't terribly steep. If you try to drop it in the muzzle of one of the Shiloh's it will only enter maybe 1/3 of the bullet length.

[ndnchf]

As a point of historical interest, I slugged the bore of the original Remington .44-77 barrel that was removed from my rifle. It measures:
Groove - .4485"
Bore - .439"

[Don McDowell]

That's good info.

[reinert]

Been a spell, but I thought I'd check in again and report on my old Remington 44 roller. I just got my new Brooks PP mould yesterday; adjustable (approx. 450-500 grn.), dual dia., with a flat base. My bore measured @ .437" and the example bullet Steve sent from my mould measures right @ .438" for the bore shank before the taper starts. I have a patch template I got from Buffalo Arms a while back, so I cut out a patch and messed with the rolling (first time for this business). No matter what I did, the template size was near an 1/8th" short of coming around to meet where I started. So, I guess I'll need to make a longer template. I also have a bullet sizer coming to size @ .437," if needed.

I took one of my new, unfired Jamison cases and ran it through my .445 neck expander die, and that patched new bullet as Steve sent me right from the mould, slipped nicely in the case neck. I then seated the patched bullet out of the case neck to where the overall cartridge length was set @ 3.30." Seems the paper is just starting to engage the rifling there as I mess with it, on the ogive. Do I want the bullet to engage at the taper area as the diameter decreases? Or, is it just to start playing and see what the old gun wants to make me happy as far as C.O.A.L.? Should I just try the bullet right from the mould, as cast? Also, I plan on trying the grease cookie business, and was thinking to try the SPG tropical for the cookies. So I guess here it starts to make the proper ammo for the old gun. Anything anyone might add as I start down the trail? Thanks, you guys have been absolutely great on the info shared on this thread.

[Don McDowell]

If the leading edge of the paper engages the rifling when you chamber the round that's about where you want to be, so long as the paper comes pretty close to or just short of the ogive. I would suggest just wrapping it as cast, wrapping and go.

[Distant Thunder]

reinert,

Just so I'm following you correctly, the bore (land diameter) of your rifle slugs at .437"? The sample bullet Steve sent with your mold measures at .438" diameter unpatched?

What is the patched diameter of your new bullet? I just want to be sure I understand what you're working with before I say anything.

[Distant Thunder]

As a point of historical interest, I slugged the bore of the original Remington .44-77 barrel that was removed from my rifle. It measures:
Groove - .4485"
Bore - .439"

That is interesting. Most original rollers I have heard about have way oversize groove diameters and I have never seen anything posted about the bore diameters. Yours is not that far out of line with the dimensions in most modern rifles chambered in .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.

Yellowhouse,

Do you know what the bore diameter is for your original roller? I often see that they have groove diameters like yours but I never see any thing about the bore diameter. Also I'd like to know what diameter bullet will fit in your fireformed cases? Thanks

[ndnchf]

That is interesting. Most original rollers I have heard about have way oversize groove diameters and I have never seen anything posted about the bore diameters. Yours is not that far out of line with the dimensions in most modern rifles chambered in .44-77.

I was a little surprised myself. From what I've read, I expected groove diameter to be around .450" or larger. The bore is in pretty nice condition too.

[Distant Thunder]

This is the bullet profile I use in the 19 twist .44-77
Sharps offered a 300 gr to 475 gr 1.39/128" long swaged. close to 1 5/16" I just like the Sharps profile.

Kurt,

I want a bullet that looks just like the ones in those cartridges in the box! That is how a .44-77 bullet should look. I like it!

[reinert]

Don, that's pretty much on the money as you've stated, as I've done and found.

Distant T., Yes, and yes, and the patched bullet measures exactly @ .444" on the shank before it starts its taper.

[reinert]

And BTW, the patch paper is the Seth Cole 55w.

[Distant Thunder]

reinert,

So you'll be working with a bullet closer to groove diameter rather than a bore diameter ppb. I would think you'd want that to up into, as in touching, the rifling as much as possible. If you're going to put a grease cookie and wads in there you just need to make sure none of that is below the neck/shoulder junction, but it sounds like the bullet is more than an inches out of the case at 3.300" COAL.

I don't know what your chamber looks like but if I'm understanding you correctly so far what you've got there should work. The bullet will bump up to fill whatever space is ahead of you case mouth and before your rifling starts and should then fill your grooves.

[Don McDowell]

Here’s what most of my 44-77 with the dual diameter Brooks billets look like


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