44-77 sharps?

[ndnchf]

I slugged the barrel - . 4375" bore, .446" groove. Now I know what I'm working with

[Lead pot]

Jim,

My new lot of Swiss 1.5 is pretty consistent with different amounts of weight and compression. I worked several ladder loads to re test the results and they all show very close to the same results you see with the 200 yard ladder loads below.
But they are not up to the 1.5 OE yet
These were shot using the Shiloh Farmer with the 17 twist barrel.
I see a lot of mention to 9#,8# 7# paper. I found that the weight varies a bunch with some manufactures. I have 9# paper that is .0017" thick and .0021". I have 7# Southworth typewriter copy paper that .0018" thick.
To keep the groups tight like Jim said the release of the bullet from the case makes a difference. The major problem is the case neck thickness variances. Keeping bullet diameters consistent is easy by doing what Jim said, run them through a die and I don't see any difference if the paper is .0017" or .0021" as long as the patched bullet is the same diameter.
My 100% cotton cocker finish Southworth paper is running out as well as the 75% cotton .0018" thick but I ordered several reams of South worth onion skin paper that runs from .002 to .0022" thick depending where you put the mic so the bullet gets pushed through a die. It makes a difference.
Loading rounds stable for match shooting can make you chase your tail like a dog getting after a flea.

[Distant Thunder]

When I talked to GM they told me that their .44 barrels run on the tight side. That's fine you just have to match your bullets to the bore using the right paper.

Once you wrap a bullet you'll know how much a particular paper adds. My 9 lb. adds .007". I believe Seth Cole 55W adds about .005", I'd have to check my notes. If that is right the 55W on a .432 bullet will be close depending on how you wrap, wet or dry. I dry wrap all mine, but both ways work very well.

Nice group with your .40-70! With that GM barrel your .44-77 should do as well. Being a 17 twist you can go to 1.470" long on your bullets easy. 17 twist is perfect in a .44.

Whatever diameter bullet with whatever paper you use you want it to be a light push through your barrel ideally. That's what works best for me anyway. I use 9 lb. because early on in my paper patching I bought a lifetime supply. I have other papers, but I've got a lot of 9 lb.

[ndnchf]

I have a three different PP bullets coming. Two are .432" diameter, the other .433". I'm going to patch close to bore diameter of .438", maybe .439". My fired cases are about .447" at the mouth. I can neck size with a .45ACP dies to bring this down a little, but a .438/9" patched bullet will still be loose. Would it be ok to size them in a .43 Spanish die? It has a .438" expander? Or is there a better way to get proper neck tension on the .438/9" size patched bullet?
Thanks,
Steve

[ndnchf]

I ran a junk case through the 43 Spanish sizer and 3 expander. The case mouth came out at .438". I don't want to full length resize every time, but this is a start. I have a couple ideas for ways to make an appropriate neck sizer.

[Distant Thunder]

Steve,

I think if you run the case up in your .43 Spanish die so it only sizes the neck down about 1/8 inch that it would work fine without FL sizing. With the die backed off to size an 1/8" the expander should work fine. That is basically what I do with the neck sizing die I made (from an existing die) except I don't use an expander and I have the bullet in the case when I size it. I can still pull the bullet from the case with just my fingers and reseat it without trouble. It's really a perfect fit.

You would be working the brass a little more by sizing it smaller than .438 ID and then expanding it out to .438 so you may not want to do that long term. Ultimately a neck sizing die that would size it to a .438-.439 ID would be best.

[Don McDowell]

Think you might be happier taking the expander button out of a lee 43 Mauser die.

[ndnchf]

Jim, I think you are right, backing off the 43 Spanish die to just size a litte of the neck would do the trick.

Don, I have the Lee 43 Mauser dies too. The expander is .445" which would be fine for
.446" greasers, but too big I think for bore size PP bullets.

[Don McDowell]

I use the 43 Mauser size die minus the expander.

[ndnchf]

Ah, got it.

I have 3 different papers to try out. I'll see how they come out, then start with the 43 Mauser sizer. If too loose, I'll go to the Spanish.

Thanks guys, I appreciate your insight and advice.

[Don McDowell]

I also set that Mauser die to only size the neck about as far as the base of the bullet will be.

[ndnchf]

That makes perfect sense. Being patched to bore diameter and just for target use, I only need to seat the bullet deep enough to hold it in place - maybe 3/16" - 1/4".

[Distant Thunder]

I have found the .44-77 to be very forgiving when it comes to seating depth, more so that my straight cased .45s.

It is my experience that most factory sizing dies really overly size the case mouths and then rely on the expander to bring them back out to a good diameter for JACKETED bullets. I shoot very few jacketed bullets anymore and find cast serve me much better in the cartridges I enjoy shooting and for what I enjoy shooting at. I have opened up the necks on several of my sizing dies so they don't size the necks down so much and now they only size them enough so that when I use a separate expander die (2 diameter type) they only need to be opened up a little to give me the fit I need for my cast bullets. It makes my cases last long and results in better accuracy.

With that in mind Don is right, the Mauser die would be a better choice depending on what size you end up with with your brass. Best to patch your bullets to fit your bore and size your brass to fit your bullets. Then everything should work pretty well. There is always a way to make things work, you just have to find the best way. That is often the simplest way.

[Don McDowell]

It works for hunting loads to.
Intersting note on this seating depth thing I've mentioned this before so those that have read it can skip on now.
I have a bullet a well know collector and rifle builder sent me 10 or so years ago, out of the blue, after he read all the flack I was getting for just wanting a 44-77 and despite all the bandwidth burned by the keyboard experts telling me not to get it. Anyway it's a pull down from an original 44-77 Creedmoor round. The bullet is .438 diameter, 1.3 inches long and weighs right at 460 grains. Under close examination you can see where the bullet sat in the case for all those years, and that case mouth mark is just exactly 1/2 inch above the base of the bullet.
After a good bit of frustration trying to get the 44 to shoot consistently well , it dawned on me to duplicate that bullet length and seating depth, get a bullet at the diameter to fit that Shiloh rifle, and shizzam, things quickly came together.
Your 17 twist will handle a longer bullet, but don't get caught up on this bullet must be seated shallow stuff to shoot well. It's simply not true.

[ndnchf]

Don - just so I'm clear - that original .438" diameter is patched diameter right?

FYI - The bullets I have coming are straight side:
- 370gr, .432" diameter
- 388gr, .433" diameter
- 400gr, .432" diameter.

The patching papers I have are .0018", .002", .0025".

Later today I'll take my junk case and expand it back out to .446", then run it through the .43 Mauser die without the expander to see what ID I get.

[Don McDowell]

No that's the bare bullet. It won't fit in the barrel of the bore of my Shiloh. But keep in mind that the original rifles barrels are a lot of time larger than what we get today. I have a couple of friends with original Remington creedmoor guns, that the groove diameter is .450. One of them also has an original Sharps but he has not measured the bore/groove diameter of the rifle. Sad part is he's mostly a collector and his gun room is about as good as any museum you can ever venture into, except for maybe better because you are welcome to take any of those rifles off the rack and handle them.
.432 diameter bullets work pretty fair when I wrapped them in Paper Mill 9# cotton rag paper, but out past 3-400 yards they started having trouble. But for hunting purpose they worked fine other than the problem of getting them to stay in the case.
I finally ended up with .434 or .435 bullets wrapped in 8 lb paper, Seth Cole 55w, as what works the best across the board in both of my rifles.
When this weather ever clears up I plan to go to work with this new Shiloh,I have yet to shoot, but as I fully expected rounds all ready built for the others drop right in the chamber, and see what it'll do with those same bullets wrapped in Seth Cole 55Y which is thinner than the 55w. That paper has shown a definite improvement in the 40's,44-90 st, and all three of the 45 chambers I shoot.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I am as guilty as anyone in spreading the shallow seating idea. That is what works very well in my .40-65, .45-70 and .45-90, but is not so much true in my .44-77. I understand seating deeper in military and hunting loads but that idea in target loads was contrary to what if found in my other cases. When I tried it in my .44-77 after talking with you I was surprised just how well it works.

I first started to really want a .44-77 in 2004, but, like you, my "friends" talked me out of it. It took me 16 years to "circle back around" to a .44-77 and I am so happy I didn't listen to all the naysayers last year when I went for it. It's not a cartridge for beginners and I'm not sure I would have done as well with it 16 years ago, I've learned a few things since then, but with your help and Kurt's too I have had a great time working with this awesome cartridge and paper patch bullets.

I have found the .44-77 to be very accurate, extremely versatile and fairly easy to load for. The big obstacle is all the misinformation and down right bad information out there. If I've learned anything with the internet it is how to sift the BS from the good stuff.

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the clarification Don.

Deeper seating depth - ok. I'll have to determine the depth after I get the bullets. I'll be using .030" card wads and probably not use a grease cookie, but maybe a dry lube wad. I'll wipe between shots.

[Don McDowell]

Jim the 44-77 is oft maligned , but mostly by folks that have never shot one, or those that didn't take the time to actually check the barrel measurements of those original rifles, and match the bullet to those measurements and twist.
The seating depth thing really does boil down to what the rifle likes. In my ventures with paper patching it appears that with the straight sided bullets, as long as the leading 1/8 inch or so of the paper engraves the rifling, things are probably good to go.
I've found the seating depth that works for my rifles, and if it doesn't work for others then so be it. I can only report what my rifles are telling me, and if someone else's rifle doesn't like that combo, that's just the way of the world, and I'm good with that.

[Yellowhouse]

Another vote for the .43 Mauser die to tighten up.

Don, was that Creedmoor bullet straight sided or tapered?

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.