RepackboxRotoMetals2Load DataTitan Reloading
Inline FabricationMidSouth Shooters SupplyReloading EverythingWideners
Lee Precision
Page 4 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 236

Thread: 44-77 sharps?

  1. #61
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    Don,

    I thought that was the case with those. I have patched those with different papers and check the 2 diameters a number of times and I usually end up scratching my head and thinking, "How's that going to work?", but that is thinking as a target shooter.

    All my BPCR hunting in the past has been with my .50-70 and a grease groove bullet that carried a good amount of lube and I was able to chamber and shoot several shots with no more than blowing into the breech if needed. I only actually fired follow up shots on two occasions and all shots hit their mark.

    I will detail out a drawing based on your bullets before I shoot then all up so if they work in my rifle I'll be able to have a mold made for that bullet.

    What paper do you use on those bullet when "shooting dirty"?
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  2. #62
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,577
    Jim,

    Shooting dirty has been my passion for going on 65 years since I got my first .43 Spanish. back then I used a lot of the Harry Pope Moulds that he made for Ideal moulds but they were grease grooved. Take a look at the bullets in the link below, especially the .40 caliber and above and pay close attention to the ogive radius ahead of the scrapper band. Those radius will work shooting dirty regardless of the shank diameters shooting a PP bullet. Yes some have to be seated deep in the case if they are patched to groove diameter or too bore but bore can be adjusted more by the length of the ogives. Short ogives are seated deeper and long tapered will work seated farther out of the case.

    The problem shooting dirty using a DDPP bullet is the .250" or so is patched to groove diameter, or close to it but the shank is the problem for holding good accuracy shooting dirty. The shank needs to be patched severely under bore to clear the fouled throat and this created a problem with possible runout. Yes the shank will obturate filling the bore/groove but if it filled more on one side that bullet will be greatly out of balance. I see this with some of the recovered bullets with the long high BC ellipticals patched under bore diameter. I have seen the land cuts more on one side of the ogive and some even with slump, plus land cuts missing .140" above the bullet base and on the other side of the ogive just short of the nose. This will show up more on a under sized DD if the shank is not bore diameter.

    But answering your question "tapered" yes the bullet like the Gibbs with a proper taper and seated properly in the case will work great and it has a blunt enough nose for a good hunting bullet.


    https://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

  3. #63
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    6,094
    Jim, the paper I've used most with those is the Seth Cole 55w wet patched. When the newest 44-77 gets here, I do plan to run some with the 55y and see if they group tighter as number of other bullets I shoot have.
    The 40 cal dual diameter in my 40-70 does seem like it would be a good candidate for shooting dirty, but I haven't really fully tested it. 3 shots is about all I've tried with it, they all chambered and went mostly where the sights were wobbling at the chickens in a silhouette match.
    The trick to getting good accuracy and the ability to shoot accurately with the tapered bullets looks to be the base of the bullet to be right at or slightly above bore diameter before wrapping. This original Sharps 44-77 creedmoor bullet I have is a tapered bullet, that as best I can tell is .438 at the base. It won't go into the bore of either of my Shilohs. It is 1.3 inches long with the hollow base formed from swaging, and on close examination was seated 1/2 inch into the case. It weighs 455 grains.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,577
    Attachment 266905

    Here are some bullets cast using a original Sharps bullet mould and they have a slight taper.

  5. #65
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    Shooting dirty is about the only time when I can see a tapered bullet being useful. I have never tried shooting dirty with paper patch bullets.

    The grease groove bullet that worked for me really didn't have any bore or groove diameter outside the case, the ogive started at the case mouth or very near. It will be interesting when I start working with paper patch for a dirty load.

    I will have to look into the original Sharps style more. They are pretty cool in their simplicity.

    So much more ground to cover with this .44-77, I've only begun to scratch the surface.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  6. #66
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    25
    Back to my old roller questions...

    I see by the posts here that the Seth Cole 55w gets mentioned mostly for patching paper. Is that the 8 lb. stuff I see available on a roll? Anyway, with all the other questions I've been pestering you guys with lately, I thought I'd humbly ask one more...for now. So, is the Seth Cole 55w, 8 lb. stuff, the one I should be after for starters? I also see Don M. has mentioned the 55y, too.

    Thanks,
    reinert

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    6,094
    Yes the Seth Cole 55w is an "8"lb paper. Office depot sells and 8 lb paper roll in their drafting supply section that is very similar.
    I think something folks have either lost sight of , or possibly weren't ever aware of, back in the day of your roller patching paper came in 3 thickness, thick which would be similar to 9lb today, medium similar to 8 lb, and thin which would be closer to a 7 lb paper.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #68
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    25
    Thank ye kindly, Don! 👍👍

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    6,094
    You're welcome.
    Looking forward to seeing what you can get that ol rifle to do when you get it up and running.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #70
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    25
    Yup, me too! Thanks to all helping me out with all the great info, and happy hunting to all this season!

    reinert

  11. #71
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    N. CA
    Posts
    45
    Jim, you asked about the dimensions for DDPP bullets for shooting dirty so I will tell what works for me. The first 1/4” of the base for my bullets are patched to bore diameter. This fits well in the case neck of all the calibers I shoot just by FL sizing. For straight cases I patch the rest of the shank to .004” under bore diameter. This clears the fouling in the bore for follow up shots and shoots well enough for hunting and plinking. You are correct about BN cases having more fouling in the throat. There’s more than twice as much fouling so I doubled the clearance to .008” and sometimes that is marginal for firing several shots with out blowing into the breach.

    As Kirt pointed out, there’s a possibility of excessive bullet runout with poor accuracy but that has not been a problem with the relatively blunt hunting bullets. If I have a batch that seems to be shooting below my expectations, I taper crimp them and that seems to correct the issue.

    reinert, most of the Shiloh rifles have chambers cut to allow groove diameter bullets to chamber. Yours likely will not so after fitting the base to fit your bore diameter, be sure to check the fit in the mouth of a fire formed case. At this point you could adjust the size Of the bullet to fit your case necks snuggly so the don’t fall out easily.

    The meplat controls the wound size and I prefer a large meplat. My favorite hunting bullet is much like the accurate 45-500R with a .300 meplat. The bullet does not “look” correct for a black powder load,
    but it produces a wide and deep wound cavity. On my other bullets I have reduced the meplat size to look more like a factory load from the 1870’s. I have not used them enough to report if they have any loss in performance.

    When loading with KIK powder, I expect to get 2.5 MOA for 10 shots. With other powders I reduce this to 5 shots, which is still plenty for hunting. There’s no reason to limit yourself to close shots only.

  12. #72
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    MicharlR,

    Thank you for the dimensions, that is what I was looking for. This is an area I'd like to explore with my .44-77, hunting loads. I will have time to start on that this winter.

    I would prefer not to size my brass but I have no problem with a crimp to hold the bullet in the cases if needed.

    I have to assume you are using a lube wad under your bullets?

    I've been working on the extra fouling of the bottleneck case and I think I've got it figured out, but testing this week will let me know for sure. I'm stilling working on target loads so wiping between shots is being used. For hunting loads if I could develop a load that would allow 5 shots without wiping and shoot into around 4" at 200 yards I'd a pretty happy man. I want to start with a bullet that will give me a good chance of success in achieving that goal. Probably around 450 to 470 grains in weight would seem about right.

    Based on your dimensions I'll figure it should patch to about .429 to .430 for the "bore ride" section of the shank. For the base I would much rather be nearer to the .446" groove/case mouth I.D. so I don't have to size my cases too much. I won't be shooting near as many of these hunting loads as I do with target loads so some sizing, if needed, would be acceptable.

    Thanks!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  13. #73
    Boolit Man R-71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    94
    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Attachment 266905

    Here are some bullets cast using a original Sharps bullet mould and they have a slight taper.
    Hot damn that’s neat! What caliber are those bullets for?

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,577
    .45-70 or larger. Patched to .449"

  15. #75
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    N. CA
    Posts
    45
    Jim
    Using a light crimp in a loose case neck works well for target loads because they are self centering. There are a couple of reasons to have a tight neck for a hunting load. I always reload my rifle immediately after shooting even if the shot seemed good. Pulling a cartridge out of your pocket with out a bullet attached is a problem. The other is, a tight neck is all that keeps the centerline of the bullet aligned with center of the bore. I don’t know which loading dies you use, but Using a cheap Lee .43 Spanish sizing die to reduce about 1/4” of the neck should hold a bore diameter bullet nice and snug.

    I do use a lube wad under the bullet sandwiched between two fiber milk carton wads. DGL or two parts oil and one part bees wax work for me.

    I doubt that you will have any trouble getting adequate hunting accuracy for 5 shots. I’m sorry that I can’t send you some sample bullets, but I’m 9 time zones away from home right now.

  16. #76
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    MichaelR,

    For dies I have a Lee .43 Mauser FL size die and a Lee .43 Spanish FL size die that I opened up the neck on so it is more compatible with the .44-77. I have not used the Spanish die much since the neck job, but it seems to have been a successful operation.

    With my target loads my bullets are only in the case .090" and have a very slight taper crimp, the bullet can be pulled by hand and usually can be reseated by hand with no damage to the patch.

    I picture my hunting bullets as being in the case something around 5/16" or a shade more. With the long neck on the .44-77 that should allow room for a lube wad with a card of some kind above and below. Lube wise I have jojoba and beeswax and a 50/50 mix is said to do well.

    The area I am still sorting out in my head is the bullet design including the diameters that will fit my chamber/brass/fouling. The fouling being the one diameter that is going to be a variable. This week in working through load development with my target loads using a different lot of Swiss 1 1/2 I came to the conclusion that this lot of powder just isn't going to make the grade in my .44-77 for whatever reason.

    It might be the extra fouling in front of the chamber, I don't know. The only other powder suitable for the .44-77 that I have on hand in any quantity is some Goex 2F. With a 1000 yard match just 3 weeks away I decided to try the Goex. To my somewhat surprise it shoot very well right out of the gate and there is noticeably less fouling in the barrel especially the area just in front of the chamber. That can't be a bad thing.

    If the Goex 2F proves to shoot well in more testing it will be where I start with my hunting loads. A friend of mine is working on a paper patch bullet to be used over black powder in a .45 caliber levergun and I'm watching his bullet design very closely. The hunting load idea has been of interest since I began to have success with PP in target shooting and finally getting a .44-77 this summer has all conveniently come together for a great winter project. The thought of black powder and paper patch bullets and being able to load and shoot and repeat is fascinating to me and I am looking forward to going down that path.

    It always helps to talk with someone who has been there and I appreciate the input from all of you guys.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    209
    While we are on the 44-77 has anyone noticed that new Jamison brass is around .008 shy of 2.25? Once fired with PPB is around .012.

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    209
    Reinert.

    Late seeing your post. Slick and shiny is a rarity....enjoy. These rifles vary a bit on bore and chamber dimensions but getting a read on such is necessary. You may find its tough getting a read on the groove diameter of the 5 groove Rem barrel but with PPB all you need is bore diameter. Even with thin necked Jamison or turned brass my sporter won't chamber a greaser any larger than .446 because of the small paper patch chamber of the day. Bore diameter is .444 but the groove diameter is a handsome .452ish which modern day shooters regard as overbore. As you can see that bullet has quite a bit of bumping up to do but it does it pretty well. Slug the bore and get some inside and outside measurements of your fired brass. Do the math before you spill for a mold.

  19. #79
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    Yellowhouse,

    Some of my Jamison brass is as much as .020" short after 3 firings. My BACO brass is all very close to 2.250". If I had it to do over again I would spend the extra money spent on my Jamison brass on more BACO brass instead. If you're going to shoot .446" diameter or larger bullets you may have to turn the necks on the BACO.

    BACO's would be a better for bore diameter (.438") ppb as they came from BACO. It seems the old rifles in .44-77 were chambered for bore diameter paper patch bullets, but many just complain that the bores are oversize and never realize what they have. Most factory loads for the .44-77 were paper patch bullets I believe.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  20. #80
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    Yellowhouse,

    Some of my Jamison brass is as much as .020" short after 3 firings. My BACO brass is all very close to 2.250". If I had it to do over again I would spend the extra money spent on my Jamison brass on more BACO brass instead. If you're going to shoot .446" diameter or larger bullets you may have to turn the necks on the BACO.

    BACO's would be a better for bore diameter (.438") ppb as they came from BACO. It seems the old rifles in .44-77 were chambered for bore diameter paper patch bullets, but many just complain that the bores are oversize and never realize what they have. Most factory loads for the .44-77 were paper patch bullets I believe.
    I wonder if theres a case stretcher out there to remedy the too short case from Jamison.

Page 4 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check