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Thread: 44-77 sharps?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Reinert, one thing that can solve the problem pretty quickly is to get some pin gauges and patch them with the paper you are going to use. This will allow you to find a bullet diameter that fits the bore right. If you can borrow a set of pin gauges and try this you'll at least be sure that you get the right fit the first time.

    Chris.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    A chamber cast that takes in the first inch or two of the rifling works well.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  3. #43
    Boolit Mold
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    Appreciate the replies. Been shooting greasers for a good spell, and have had good luck with them using strictly black, and just now since I've acquired the old roller, I want to jump into paper patch for it, and no hurry about it, either. Just want to have fun with it. I've got the Matthews book (Paper Jacket) I've had for a long time, and am looking to pick up a copy of R. Wright's book, too. I emailed him yesterday for info on the next run of the book, and he told me it just may be available again next month, a good thing. I'm pushing 70 quite hard, and really like evenings on a good book study; and now, paper patched bullets for an old gun is right up my alley.

    Mostly the reason I posted my questions, was because there is a real difference of breech measurement and muzzle measurement on my .44 (and how I measured both). I thought maybe there might/could be a compromise on what a mould dia. might be regarding the two ends of the barrel, and if it makes a difference for a proper mould. (?) The drill bit measurement that you mentioned is an interesting one. Also, I do know about pin gauges, and thanks for that reminder/suggestion. And I see by the comments here, that Steve Brooks makes an adjustable p.p. mould? Looks interesting. When I get to the point of putting in an order for a Brooks mould, I'll certainly have the BORE dia. figured (if not by me, I know a couple of folks...).

    I also read just yesterday that some folks use computer paper for patching? Ha! So much to learn and have fun with. And like everything else, no two things of the same bird, are exactly the same for an application. I do get that. Once I get my bore dia. figured for a mould, is there a good starting point with a certain paper you might suggest? For starters? I do have a .44 p.p. template coming from BACO this week, so I can start practicing the rolling business (I have a couple of grooved .44s I can mess around on). Again, I do appreciate the helpful comments to get me on the right track with this cool old rifle I just got, and proper ammo. Thanks!

    I just see now that Don M. posted about a chamber cast. I do have an unused 1/2 lb. bar of cerrosafe I've had for quite a few years; might be time to use it.

  4. #44
    Boolit Mold
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    Gunlaker, thanks for that suggestion with paper patching the proper pin gauge. Seems a very good idea.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Well sounds like you have a slight choke at the muzzle from what you found already and that choke is a good thing. When you order your mould go by the breach end measurements.
    The original Remington Rollers tend to have a larger groove and bore diameters then now mostly used. Some are closer to a .45 caliber from what I found in the past shooting the rollers.
    The bullet on the left is a tapered Gibbs cast with a KAL adjustable mould it has a ogive that is good with not to much taper and it is a very good shooting bullet. You will read a lot of negatives about tapered bullets but this one works good as far as your sights will reach.
    Attachment 266860

  6. #46
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    Thanks, L.P.!

    I think I'm going to try Gunlaker's suggestion of using pin gauges for bore measurement. I have a source for them. Then when I get my template, I'll practice rolling on the gauge until I get a mould for the real deal. As this rifle will be for fun and hunting, would you suggest a cupped or a flat based bullet? I will also keep in mind the breech measurement for bore is what I'm after. Also, for a hunting bullet, would a bit of meplat be in order for a better expansion on a critter? I would imagine Steve Brooks can make anything regarding a mould.

    I use the Lyman 457193 f.n. mould, as cast, in my 45/70 with great results when hunting with a 20:1 alloy and black powder (the bullets from that mould weigh right @ 410 grns for me). I've killed elk, deer and antelope with the rifle, and though I've never been able to retrieve a bullet in the body of any of the critters I've shot using the gun, the exit wounds have always been substantially bigger than the entry. to date, nothing I've killed with that rifle were over 100 yds. There's a pretty fair amount of meplat on that bullet (I imagine for tubular usage), and was wondering if I would need quite that much on a new hunting mould for the .44. Nothing but pipe smoke thoughts here, and just wondering about a possible, needful sized meplat on a new mould in the works.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    One more thing. I would keep away from the thick computer paper. I use Eesleck paper ( discontinued ) that is about 0.002" thick, and Seth Cole 55W which is around 0.0016" or so thick. That stuff is easy to get by searching with google. I got mine from Amazon and eBay.

    Since it sounds like you want to hunt with it maybe you'll be better off with a little bit thicker than the Seth Cole. I don't hunt with PP bullets but I'm pretty sure Don does. He will probably have a good suggestion on paper. I'd get the paper source figured out before you finalize your mold diameter.

    Chris.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with a meplat for a hunting bullet but I wouldn't go over board on it's size.
    A few years back I sent Steve Brooks a bullet I turned down on the lathe that was like the original bullet used by Sharps as well as other that was popular in the past used for the Buff hunts and most everything else and I used that bullet cast 1/20 T/L alloy on 3 bison hunts open I used the .44-90bn with that bullet and it put him down with one shot, Twice I used that same bullet for the .44-77 and two shots on one and three on the last one because the shots were a little high in the lung but the first shot was a killer. I don't like to have them feel the pain to long.
    I have seen several guys using that profile with Steve's moulds. I also like that bullet for the gong shoots. if the bulet puts down a Bison in fine shape it will do the same to an Elk.
    As far as a template for your bullet. You can make it by wrapping three turns around the diameter of the size that fits the bore and put a slit through the three layers and the two slits will be the length of the patch. Just cut about a 50 degree angle and your good to wrap the bullet. just don't put a scratch on the pin gauge

    Attachment 266863Attachment 266864

  9. #49
    Boolit Mold
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    Nice looking bullet, for sure. Is that a seated 44/77 round ready to chamber in the photo? Looks pretty long. (?) Do you use a .030" or .060" OPW under the bullet? Need to compress at all? Does compression work all right in a bottleneck? Looking forward to my own "newb" wrapping session coming up pretty quick. "just don't put a scratch on the pin guage," watchwords for sure... Also, is that a flat based bullet?

    Please forgive all the questions, and know I do appreciate all the help.

    Thanks again!

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I would call Steve Brooks and make 2 of the best bore slugs you can and place in tubes labeled as to breech and muzzle then ship them to him. Let him measure and give an idea of size. He wants it right the first time also. He is an old hand at measuring and by measuring both the slugs and mould a lot of the room for error, different mikes. temps, feels will be removed. A win win solution for both of you.

    The 3 wraps and nick makes a great template. I usually shorten the template about .030 to allow for a smother transition the end isnt laying on the radius of the second wrap over the end this way. I cut the width wide enough to cover bullet from just under ogive to a small fold under that leaves a small dia if the base showing, no tail. This is about an 1/8" dia showing thru. With brooks cup base this may take a little trial and error. This makes for a much flatter base and better seating.

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Keep your bullet length to no longer than 1.3 inches and it will retain accuracy across the spectrum. Staying with the original 1.1 inch length would most likely be where that rifle really shines. I have one of Brooks adjustable dual diameter sharps style moulds for the 44's and it works well. Mostly I either cast them at 1.1 inch or 1.3 in the 44-77. The base diameter is .435, wrapped in seth cole 55w, and seated one top of a dry lubed felt wad, and the exposed portion of the loaded bullet's patch treated with a dab of jojoba oil, works good for hunting.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I made the bullet as close as I could to the original with a cup base but I made a second base plug for a flat base. The the original cup based bullets the Sharps Rifle Co. used was to tug the twisted patch tail into to make the bullet base more or less flat. The cup based bullet is not ideal for a patch that is just folded under just covering the skirt. This damages the skirts and throws the accuracy I the drink.
    Yes that round has been down range for a few years as you see it.
    Don likes his bullets on the short end I like mine at 1.325 for the 19 twist .44's I have and it will hit a full sized iron buffalo at 1585 yards nose straight on with the barrel sighted 19 twist .44-77. For the large game I want to keep the bullet weight at 485 gr and this is where I locked the Brooks adjustable mould at. In the .44-90bn I use that bullet at 500 gr in it's 19 twist.
    That bullet in the photo has a .023" thick OJ carton wad over the powder 1/8" lube wad and a .038" plastic ice cream bucket wad under the bullet. powder is compressed .243" usually with 79 gr of 2F OE. You can compress the powder in a BN case what ever you need for the accuracy but the load I use is a mild compressed load. Swiss will shoot with light compression and also with heavy. I have found it has a couple compression levels it will handle.

  13. #53
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    Fantastic info here guys. Thanks a big bunch. I believe I'll play a bit with the pin gauges, then call Steve Brooks for a visit. I'll make sure I make the slugs as per Steve wants me to, if that's what he requires. I did get a Brooks grease groove mould with the gun (.446 dia., and if I remember right, it's a 500 grn'r), but haven't had the opportunity to set up my bullet factory since I got the rifle (two weeks ago). I'm thinking the adjustable mould route, and I was thinking the 485 grn. setting would be a good hunting slug to start on, as Lead Pot seems to like "locked on" (with a bit of meplat; I'll see what Steve might suggest). I also got 100 pieces of Jamison brass with the rifle (80 of them new, unfired), so I'm in fair stead for play and hunting. Never paper patched before, and looking to have a great time learning all about it, with a cool old roller. As time and things proceed along here, I'll check in and let you know how goes the battle.

    In the mean time, any info you might want to share, I do greatly appreciate. Thanks again!

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The reason I have settled on the "shorter" bullets in a 19 twist 44-77 gun is because they will stay stable in all conditions. The longer bullets will shoot maybe ok to 800 in calm conditions, but beyond that it's a crap shoot.
    The most used load when your roller was new was a 1.1 inch bullet , there's a reason for that, and I seriously doubt they've built an critter that could contain one under 200 yards on a broadside hit.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  15. #55
    Boolit Mold
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    I can foresee myself (pipe dream smoke) once I get a load that works well in the old gun, sitting someplace on a mountain trail, waiting for a cow elk to walk by me around 50-60 yards distant (or less!), broadside. I'm retired, so I just might be able to take the time to wait that situation out to reality, but probably not this year...(?) dunno, maybe. I DO have my Shiloh Hartford 45/70 all ready to go, ammo and all, if I want to use a traditional rifle this year, anyway.

    The ol' roller has the "rough and ready" flip-up barrel peep sight on it, and I might need to drill the hole a bit bigger (old eyes see two holes in the thing, along with two front blades), but I kind of hate to put a drill bit to it at this point; still, could happen I suppose. Don't know if there's a Hadley type disc available that would work on it, or maybe a custom-threaded modification of a Merit diopter might/could somehow work, too. Ideas... When the "rough and ready" is flipped down to use just the traditional barrel sights arrangement, I still see that quite well, as long as I've got decent light to make the right sight picture. These are all good problems to deal with, along with building a good p.p. load the old rifle. Great project, all around.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    When that 44 bullet of the original sharps/remington nose slaps into an elks ribcage it make a pretty loud slap, and they hit the ground hard legs folded.
    Might check with MVA they make a rough and ready sight, maybe it would drop right in place of that original one, and it wouldn't hurt to modify it to your liking.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Don and Kurt,

    I'd like to ask a question of about PP hunting bullets. How much under bore size do you find is needed to be able to chamber subsequent rounds to allow for the fouling buildup in the .44-77 specifically?

    I have noticed with my .44-77 that there is somewhat heavier fouling just in front of the chamber than what I typically see in my .45 caliber straight cased cartridges. It is not currently a problem because I'm working on target rounds and of course I'm wiping between shots to deal with the fouling. I would like to develop a PP hunting load for my .44-77 that would allow for a reasonable number of follow up shots while maintaining hunting accuracy at reasonable hunting distances. This question keeps coming up and I don't think I've seen anybody talk in detail about diameters. I thought the OP and I would both appreciate hearing your experiences on this.

    For me it will make a great winter project to develop a PP hunting load. Is 200 yard hunting accuracy possible? Say minute of dinner plate?

    Thanks as always for input.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  18. #58
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Jim,

    I has more to do with the ogive profile then the diameter to shoot repeatedly with fouled throats.

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Jim those dual diameter bullets I gave you a couple of years back , will shoot dirty, when using the dry lubed felt and jojoba on the patch, and it does shoot well enough to do a 97-3 at 200, should of been a 100-4, but got to day dreaming about who was going to play my part in the movie about the awards ceremony. LOL
    And that is the only bullet I have found that would shoot dirty.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Kurt, tapered?
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check