Hunting Load: 45-70 405 gr cast @ 1300 fps --->European smokeless Powder?

[BLAHUT]

I shoot a 45/70> using a lee 515 fp in my guide gun mold #c57500f at .457 ol 2.55 27 g>rs 5744 > this my bear load for fishing> this is a heavy load> black horn209 at 42grs with a 500gr bullet - light compression > 500gr with 12grs unique power > .460 card wad over powder with a plastic wad over card under bullet> keeps powder down on primer> i use only lr mag primers> i also use the 515gr with unque in my 45/60 for deer>
i shoot only soft/pure lead> make my own lub> head shots do not waste much meat.
In my roler with blackhorn 209 with a 500gr is accurate out to over 1000yds>

[Blackforest]

Hey boolit casters,

there is some news.
We've testet the 405 gr WFN bullet with Vihtaviori N110. The results were good. The powder seems not to be very position sensitive. We didn't use any kind of filler. Very clean powder burning, good consistency.


Then we've tried another mould. The hollow point mould "MP-Mold 462 Hammer" Item: 11082. 325 gr (depends on hollow point pin)
We have chosen the new Reload Swiss RS 14 powder. It is very similar to Hodgdon TrailBoss, that is no longer available on the european market.

All velocitys @ 10m out of the 19" barrel of a Marlin GBL.
With the deep hollow (9mm deep) point our bullets fragmented over 290 m/s.
There is a picture of our 10 gr load with 289 m/s :


Well, the load density with 10 gr was only 52 %. We don't want to go below that.

Then we've testet the small hollow point (5mm deep):




That are the results for expansion in water filled plastic bags. The recovered bullets were fired into 10 Liter really thin walled garbage bags and stopped around 100 cm travel through the water. Well, that is not like ballistic gelatin, but I have to do my tests with what I have available.
The large HP fragmented above 290 m/s. Maybe it is better suited for .45 handguns than for .45-70 rifle loads. Or only for long range applications over 150 m or for self defense where brutal fragmentation is no problem.
The small HP mushroomed beautiful from 280 m/s (18mm, .71 cal), 300 m/s (21mm, .83 cal), 320 m/s (22mm, .87 cal) and 340 m/s (22mm, .87 cal, too). I did not test loads under 280 m/s. Weight retention was always 100 % (326 gr). At 350 m/s the bullets fragmentet, the whole nose shed off. Well, if shot at 340 m/s at the muzzle, these loads hold the velocity of 280 m/s out to 150m – awesome!
My alloy was also 20-1 binary lead-tin alloy, like written in my previous review. In the future I will test 30-1 or even 40-1 alloy, maybe it makes my velocity range where I get reliable expansion a little big bigger. Pressure of my loads should be from 600 Bar to 1000 Bar, so the softer alloy should be good to go.
What do you experts think of that idea? Should we give 40-1 a try?

You know, we use air rifle pellets from the bullet trap as "lead source" and pewter stuff als "tin source".
A laboratory analysed our alloy:
Pb 94,04%
Sn 4,15%
Sb 0,52%
unknown rest 1,29 %
Maybe the 0,52 % antimony and the 1,29% rest make it a little bit more brittle.

We will test these bullets on light and thin skinned european roe deer and wild boars.
Loads where made with Reload Swiss RS 14, the new bulky and low energy powder, very similar to Hodgdon TrailBoss. It burns very clean, and extremly consistent.
Load was from 10 to 18 gr. From 280 m/s to 370 m/s measured at 10m. An from 52 % case filling to 93 %.
The 10 gr load has only 600 Bar pressure and the velocity was very consistent. Up to 15-16 gr there was very consistent velocity measurement.
At 17 gr and above there was some difference between the shots (1500 Bar range).

At 50 m we shot with not perfekt gun rest groups of 2-3 cm. With perfect sandbags there should be a improvement!

[mnewcomb59]

I would suggest placing a few layers of denim on the outside of the first water jug to slow the expansion. Deer are covered in fur, people are covered in clothes, and both things plug the hollow point and make it expand less.

Your highest velocity load that fragmented will likely not fragment on a live target. First, the water is harder on a bullet than ballistic gel or animals and makes the bullet expand wider. Second, animals fur will slightly plug the HP and make a lower expanded diameter. Third, those light weight 45 bullets have a bad ballistic coeffecient and you will lose a lot of speed within 50 meters down range. I am not sure what you are using for your ballistic coefficient number, but I would guess that bullet has a BC of .18-.2.

The very first thing I would do before I change the alloy would be to test your fastest load with two layers of denim on the first jug. You will likely find that you still have 100% weight retention and the bare water shot was a little bit misleading.

[Blackforest]

I would suggest placing a few layers of denim on the outside of the first water jug to slow the expansion. Deer are covered in fur, people are covered in clothes, and both things plug the hollow point and make it expand less.

Good idea! I will try that!

Your highest velocity load that fragmented will likely not fragment on a live target. First, the water is harder on a bullet than ballistic gel or animals and makes the bullet expand wider. Second, animals fur will slightly plug the HP and make a lower expanded diameter. Third, those light weight 45 bullets have a bad ballistic coeffecient and you will lose a lot of speed within 50 meters down range. I am not sure what you are using for your ballistic coefficient number, but I would guess that bullet has a BC of .18-.2.

Yes, your correct. Water is very hard on bullets. I keep that in mind for my interpretations of the test results.
I have no BC for that bullet, calculated with .200 by comparing to other similar bullets on the market.

The very first thing I would do before I change the alloy would be to test your fastest load with two layers of denim on the first jug. You will likely find that you still have 100% weight retention and the bare water shot was a little bit misleading.

I will try that, thanks!

[Blackforest]

Here is some information and comparison between 20-1 alloy and 40-1 alloy.

With the 40-1 alloy I tryied 4 layers of thin cloth (like T-Shirt).

I know, water bags is not ballistic gelatin, but to get a rough idea it should be fine.



I will stay with the 40-1 alloy because of it's possibility to mushroom below 280 m/s or 900 fps and will load them someting around 340 m/s or 1100 fps for testing on roe deer.



Very interesting was: with the lightest load at 282 m/s or 925 fps, there was almost no difference in mushrooming with or without the layers of cloth.



Well, maybe I have to get into the theory of making my own ballistics gelatin to make this test more representative...we will see.

[Dom]

Sorry to hear about your difficulty to obtain needed powder, etc. I have posted a picture of four .458 bullets I cast. From the left is a Lyman 310gr HP, Saeco 350 gr with GC, NOE ( I think ) 390 gr PB , & an RCBS 405gr GC style. I use scrap wheel weights so my bullets come out a bit heavier. The RCBS 405gr comes out 422grs with my alloy, & a BHN of 10.5. I drive most of these with Alliant 2400, & a small tuft of Dacron. Works great . I have an old sleeping bag that has a life time supply of Dacron. Don't be afraid to use the filler, except with Unique. . Most all my loads are at 1300 to 1350 fps. The 422gr at 1300 fps delivers impressive penetration. Should easily handle game , at least up to 1000 lbs. The Buffalo ( 1200 lbs ) was almost wiped out with a slower load than this. It penetrates like a freight train. I use a Marlin XLR stainless with 24" Bbl. It has what Marlin calls " Deep Grove Ballard Style " rifling. Very good accuracy with my loads. Hope this is helpful.

[seb2567]

Black forest, I have used the same boolit last season on a hog (mp 462 hammer), my load is 49,5gr vvN130 (wich for me seems a little more accurate,with more speed) and it did a lot of damage on the meat, the bullet literally exploded inside the hog, so this year I plan on using the same mold, but with a flatpoint and I think it will be better

[ChristopherO]

With only 1 part tin to 40 parts of soft lead and the wide nose your boolit has I tend to agree with seb2567, a pure flat nose should be plenty sufficient. The nose will impact very hard and the soft boolit will deform even without a hole in the nose. The old buffalo boolits were soft, such as what you are casting, and they used round nose designs that expanded quite nicely on game. The hog hide is certainly thicker and tougher than a roe deer hide, but with the flat nose there won't be any issue in that regard.
You've put the time in and brought out excellent research in the process. I, too, use lined up water jugs at 100 yards to test my range scrap cast boolits in the 45/70. That is somewhat harder than what you are using, but they leave the muzzle at about 1,700 fps.
Accurate 420 grain 460" Gas Check


This one was pulled out of the dirt berm at 100 yards:


Water Jugs:


There is expansion in Whitetail deer, but not to this extent from everything I can tell. The game doesn't like them and don't stay on their feet for very long.

[Petander]

Please do not play around with VV N110 in 45-70.

Here is some proper Vihtavuori data.

[Petander]

I made a batch of pure lead (airgun pellet scrap) bullets for 45-70 Marlin SBL.

This is a Mihec 400 grain, as NLG it drops 445 grn (#2) and with pure I got 460 grn now.

I double PC:d these and intend to shoot 1500 fps. Any guesses about leading are welcome,I do not know what to expect from a 5,4 BHN plain base boolit here.