Trail Guns

[YippyKiYay]

In your LE career did you have the opportunity to work cases where anyone was shot with a .32? Did the rounds bounce off or zip through without making a hole? Or were the victims incapacitated?

I did trade for a 38 S&W break action once and a box of Factory Remington's. I kept it at the gas station I worked at until the night I was driving home and a large Hardshell turtle was crossing the road. I got out and hot 5xs at the turtle, but the bullets only left greasy skid marks on its back. I sold the S&W quickly after that.

[John Van Gelder]

For anything you need to do with a handgun a good medium frame 4" .357 is hard to beat. With modern powders and a good hard 170-180 grn bullet you can break into the 7-800ft/# range in the 4" gun, and a few .38 WC loads in a pocket are great for small game. For a lighter package the new S&W mod 19s are a good choice, they have been redesigned so the barrel cracking issue is no longer a problem.

[Markwell]

I'm new to this forum (but not to handguns) and find this old discussion very interesting.

We've been fortunate to have travelled the west a lot over the last 50 some years and have lived in rural America for just as long. Here in the Alleghenies we have lots of bears, and, like most places, some bad guys as well.
Being an old Practical Shooter since before the USPSA days we have been wedded to the 1911 pistol for longer than we care to admit. Our field guns of choice over the years have, however, been revolvers; mostly S&W magnums of one sort or another. Many years ago we carried our only Smith, a 8 3/8" model 27, on a two week back pack trip into the Bob Marshall. That revolver soon went down the road for a shorter Barreled Model 19. As the battery of guns grew over the years .44 Mag Model 29s became the gun of choice when travelling in the west and for some uses here in the east. Later in life we had the opportunity to work in a hunting camp in the Wyoming Range West of Bondurant for several years. There were big bears in the area and one of our 5" model 29s stoked with 300gr. LBTs was always within reach. We also kept a 22LR S&W Kit Gun close to hand for the camp mice and chipmunks in the cook tent.
Several years ago we were finding that managing the recoil of the big 44 was getting to be a bit much so we looked to the 1911 pistol in 10mm to take the big Smith's place as our wilderness companion. We acquired a Guncrafter Industries No Name full size 1911 in 10mm with both a 5" and 6" barrel fitted thinking it would be interesting to experiment with the velocity form the two barrel lengths. (the inch difference had little to no affect on velocity btw). Anyway, carried in a Guides Choice chest rig this is where we are in our 50 some year quest for the "perfect" wilderness field pistol. Loaded with Hard cast WFNGC 200gr. bullets at 1262fps we find the 10mm 1911 to be easier to shoot well than our beloved Model 29s. Interestingly, here in the Alleghenies we tote around a variety of asstd. handguns including the 10mm but recently have gravitated to our S&W Model 631 Kit Gun in .32H&R Mag. with cast bullets or Hornady XTPs.

Thanks for a great thread.

[John Van Gelder]

There is a lot to be said for carrying a semi-auto afield. They are, in most cases lighter than the magnum revolvers, with the exception of the K frame smiths which are lighter, than a full sized all steel 1911 pattern gun. Guns of the same ilk as Glock 20 and 21 are much lighter and carry on average twice as much ammunition as any revolver. If you have a pack full of gear any weight saving is a benefit.

The 10 mm was headed the same way as the .41 magnum, until the woodsmen discovered it and I think that brought it back from the brink of extinction. If you have a gun chambered in .45ACP an easy/economical conversion is the .45 Super, in most cases all you need in a 1911 is a heavy recoil spring 24-26#, a square bottom firing pin stop, a heavy main spring and firing pin spring. For the Glock 21, you need a new barrel, heavy recoil spring assembly and a heavier striker spring. AND .45 Super brass. With a modified gun it is possible to substantially out perform the 10mm.

[jonp]

A good trail gun is one you will carry. Shotguns, rifles, loud and boomer handguns are fine but will you have them when you need them? A standard 45LC Red or Blackhawk loaded Linebaugh level will do you about as good as anything will and is not so heavy you won't have it when you need it

[John Van Gelder]

The .45 Colt is another good all around cartridge, the original black powder loading would drive a 255 gr. bullet at over 1000 fps in a 7 1/2" barrel 1873 Colt SAA. Compared with it's percussion predecessors that fired a much lighter round ball, it was a real hand full. Today's standard pressure .45 Colt loadings are pretty anemic. The reason for that is that there are still some of the old black powder guns still in use. A real testament to the durability of the original design.

A load that I have used to good effect on bears in the .45 Colt is the Lee 255 gr. RNFP bullet (260 gr. in my alloy) loaded over 9 gr. of Unique. This load chronographs an average of 1050 fps in my 5.5" Redhawk. I dropped a problem bear at 80 paces with one round, the bear was right in place for a finishing round when I got to him. On another occasion I took a bear off the side of a tree with that same load in my Blackhawk with the ejector housing length barrel. The bear hit the ground and I put a finishing shot behind the ear.

The .45 Colt is still relevant, in a pinch you can load it with black powder and it will do a good job for you. With a wide selection of bullets you can load it back to pleasant loads for recoil sensitive shooters. That big case will accommodate enough bird shot to make it effective on small game. For that quick first shot nothing points like that old SSA design. I carried a Blackhawk loaded with 350 gr. sized down .45-70 bullets over a generous loading of H110 for a lot of years in Alaska, but never had the opportunity to shoot an angry bear. It was unfortunate when Ruger discontinued the original Vaquero for the lighter frame gun, those original guns would take the same loads as the Blackhawk.

The .45 Colt is a good choice, but they are big, heavy and slow to reload. There are times when it is difficult to make the best shot placement and six may not be enough.

[Jedman]

I have only read the original post so, If I had your situation I guess I would carry a large can of bear spray like the park rangers do in Yellowstone NP. It has a very limited range but is probably more effective than a bullet for stopping something quickly. Just my 2 cents.

Jedman

[John Van Gelder]

I spent 23 years in Alaska, my collateral function was fish and wildlife officer, a friend of mine used an entire can of bear spray on a black bear with absolutely no effect. In these kind of situations you do not get to pick which way the wind is blowing and with spray you may spray yourself as well. Nothing works 100% of the time, your best choice is what you feel most confident with.

The probability of being attacked by a large predator is lower than getting hit by lightening.

[John Van Gelder]

I haven't added anything here for a while. It is starting to warm up in the mountains and it wont be long until the large predators are moving about, time to think about this again. When out on the trail it is often more convenient to carry a semi auto than a large frame revolver, the down side being that in most cases the revolver fires a more powerful, hopefully more effective, round. Recently S&W released their M&P semi-auto in 10mm, this is a good option, I tend to favor the S&W over some of the other striker fired guns. There is lots of hype over the 10mm, when in reality it is closer in effectiveness to the .357 than the .44 magnum. Last fall while browsing fire arms related videos on You Tube, I found a series on the channel "Stuck Case". These are well done instructional videos and delve into pushing the limits of the 10mm and .45ACP. Some of the end loads for the .45ACP do in fact approach .44 magnum energies.

These videos are worth a watch, there are cautions to be observed, and information about modifications. If you already own a .45ACP this seems to be a pretty decent alternative to buying a large revolver or a new 10mm. Over the years I have done quite a bit of experimenting with the .45ACP, my biggest concern is the unsupported portion of the chamber in most guns, and the fact that not all .45ACP brass is created equal. My best results with high pressure loads is to use once fired military brass.

Spring is on the way, don't forget to check your back trail..

[Baltimoreed]

Had a black bear follow my cover scent that was on my boots to the tree I was in. I was in camo but when I asked him what he wanted he froze looked up and then hauled butt. Killed a couple deer from that tree.

[John Van Gelder]

Baltimoreed

Lots of bears in my neighborhood in the summer months, I get on well with them most of the time, and really like to see them.

[calm seas]

As said elsewhere, the best 'defense' or trail gun, is the one you shoot best. I am extremely comfortable with my Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull with rounds that 'buck'. It's not something for my wife - hand size, recoil, etc. I told my wife my AR in 5.56 may not kill a brownie with one round, but a 30-round mag will make that bear sorry for sticking its head in that hornet's nest.
On a lighter note, I had a woman tell me a .25 Auto is the perfect bear defense gun. I looked at her cock-eyed, she said 'it's light, easy to carry, and one round through your hiking companion's knee lets you walk away while your companion is bear food.' She was Canadian....

[calm seas]

I am not a fan of the 'latest greatest newest whizz-bang round' craze, but a friend said a 350 Legend AR in pistol config was what his wife would/could carry for bears here in Alaska. YMMV

[Jim22]

For anything you need to do with a handgun a good medium frame 4" .357 is hard to beat. With modern powders and a good hard 170-180 grn bullet you can break into the 7-800ft/# range in the 4" gun, and a few .38 WC loads in a pocket are great for small game. For a lighter package the new S&W mod 19s are a good choice, they have been redesigned so the barrel cracking issue is no longer a problem.

John, My wife and I walk the dogs every morning here in northeast Washington State. We live a waya away from any town. We have seen black bear, lots of deer, at least one wolf - we have two small packs to the east of us and one to the west. The coyotes are a presence as well as the cougars. We don't see either much but we often hear the coyotes on a kill. I also lived in Alaska - for 28 years. As a matter of fact I think you issued me the only speeding ticket I have ever gotten - back when the speed limit was 55 mph. Seems like you and your wife were both troopers.

Any way, I normally carry a 3" Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum with 158 grain factory loads. I have aftermarket grips on it and have had a trigger job done on it. We have been making that walk daily. This is the 22nd year so I have done it thousands of times. Never have had to shoot. Five round capacity with a speedloader in my right pocket. I think I would rather have a .44 special or a .45. The tinnitus I have was the result of shooting a .357. The bigger bores just don't seem so loud.

Jim

[John Van Gelder]

Jim

You are correct, my wife and I were both troopers. I carried a SP101 in .38 spl. for a time in Alaska, since I was sure the heat treatment was pretty much the same for the .38 as the ..357, I loaded it with 172 gr. Keith bullets in .38 cases over 13.5 gr. of 2400. Kind of a hand full in that little gun, I gave the sp 101 to my wife and got a 3" fixed sight GP100, it fit my big hand better, and in the configuration was very pleasant to carry. Up where you live there is a real possibility of running into a grizzly. I think the .357 would do the job but I would stay away from expanding bullets and stick with a good hard cast SWC.

The .44s and .45s with moderate loads are less sharp and not as hard on the ears as the .357 with full power loads.

My weather is improving, most of the snow is gone and my pastures are greening up. No bears yet but I had and entire herd of elk in my upper horse pasture. The big herbivores can be unpredictable, I am not sure of the numbers, but I am willing to bet that more people are injured by the big "grass eaters" than by predators.

[Jim22]

John,

I may take your advice and go to a cast boolit. I don't worry much about black bears but, as you say, there are a few grizzlies in the area. My son in law saw one a few years ago. I've never encountered one but the cattlemen in this area are sustaining some losses from predators. Their focus seems to be on the wolves that were introduced but they and the sheep people are becoming something of a team. We live close to a golf course so the deer get plenty of water and green no matter what the drought. Last summer was ugly around here with blue tongue. So far the Chronic Wasting disease has stayed away but we lost a lot of deer over the winter.

Snow is pretty much gone here as well. Daytime temps here at 2,000 ft elevation are in the 40's and 50's. We had a light frost last night. Frost on the shingles when we walked the dogs.

Another retired Trooper lives in this area. About 25 miles away. The hero of Manley Hot Springs. I run into him from time to time. He's had an interesting life since Manley.

I'm kind of slowed down right now. On March 1 I fell on the ice and broke some ribs. It's been a month but it will be a while longer. I can still feel them move.

Nice to run into someone from Alaska. Enjoy your dotage.

Jim

[John Van Gelder]

Jim

I live up at 36-3700 ft. level, a good friend of mine just down the road a couple of miles is the regional Wildlife Services agent for the Dept. of Agriculture, he lets me know if there are problem bears, mt. lions or wolves in the neighborhood.

For your .357 the old Keith load 172/13.5 gr. of 2400 is hard to beat.

Would the person you mentioned be Jeff Hall? He lost a good friend in the incident at Manly. He did some private contractor work after, and I just happened to catch a video of some of that.

As they say in the UK.. "Mind how you go"..J

[Jim22]

Yes it is Jeff Hall. I was reluctant to use his name in this forum. I, for one, am stll impressed by his presence of mind to complete his objective even after his friend was killed right next to him. The Alaska DPS thought so as well. Shortly afterwards they sent him to teach his techniques at the Trooper academy in Sitka. After retirement he started teaching it to others and found himself doing so in middle east hotspots. He told me about stationing a man with a rifle at the back of his classes to observe the 'True Believers'. He is still writing but, like me, he's getting a bit long in the tooth.

We knew his wife Linda as well in Wasilla. We worked construction and she handled some of our banking.

Now I know him just to say 'Hi' to.

As far as loading I'll try but I don't have any 2400. Oh, well, another project.

Thanks,

Jim

[John Van Gelder]

Jim

The next time you see Jeff feel free to mention my name...j

[Jim22]

John,

Will do.

Jim