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Thread: 4F Blackpowder?

  1. #21
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Major sad face today......Strain gauge connection broke loose on 1st shot of test.......

    That seems to be a reoccurring problem with Will put on another tomorrow and try it again. My first test load was with34.5 gr FFFG under the 454190 bullet.....also was a non eventful but heavy recoiling load........Just didn't get any data.........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  2. #22
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    Chill Wills's Avatar
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    This looks very interesting!!!

    45 Colt?

    Blackhawk? maybe a Contender or lever rifle?

    I have a lot of 4F cleaned out of cans of 2F from the old days before Swiss. (screened)
    I have been burning it in my Ruger Old Army. My 4F stash exceeds the rate my son and I can plink it up anytime soon. Also, a full case in a 44 mag seems like it could be workable in some form or another.

    I will be interested to hear what you come up with. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to test and share the data.
    Chill Wills

  3. #23
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    Got the pressure test of GOEX 4fg BP in the 45 Colt completed today.

    I had six loads of GOEX 4fg under a 454190 to test: 19, 22, 25, 28 & 31 with a wheat bran filler. An additional GOEX 4fg load of 34.5 gr was slightly compressed by the bullet and required no filler.

    Under the same 454190 bullet two "full" loads of 3fg were also tested; one with 35 gr of GOEX Cartridge and one of 34.5 with some old Dupont 3fg "Superfine" BP.

    Other load data;
    Cases: Winchester W-W
    Primers: Winchester WLP
    Cartridge OAL: 1.600"
    Bullet lube 8/5 beeswax to olive oil.

    Velocity: Corrected to muzzle

    Test firearm: Contender with TC Factory 10" barrel
    PSI/velocity measured with Oehler M43 PBL.
    SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.

    The "standard" modern 45 Colt BP load of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge gave a velocity of 852 fps at 13,500 psi.

    The 34.5 gr load of Dupont Superfine 3fg gave a velocity of 1005 fps at 13,500 psi.

    Note: The lowest pressure reading I have got with this barrel is 11,300 psi. Understanding it takes 7000 psi +/- to expand a FL sized case before it can put pressure on the barrel. Then and additional amount is needed to "strain" the barrel so the strain gauge can measure it.

    With the GOEX 4fg loads of 19, 22, 25 & 28 gr there just wasn't enough pressure generated to measure. With the 31 gr load only 30% of the shots generated enough pressure to get a measurement. That simply means all the shots with no psi measurement had less than 11,300 psi.

    The 31 gr load of GOEX 4fg that gave a measurement gave a velocity of 969 fps at 12,300 psi.

    The 34.5 gr GOEX 4fg load gave a velocity of 1025 fps at 12,100 psi.

    Note: The 31 gr load had a wheat bran filler. The 34.5 gr load had no filler.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  4. #24
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    Thanks for your time and effort. Your results are confirming my suspicions. I’ll work up to the mid level and smoke up the hillside!

  5. #25
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    Thank you for posting your test! This takes a lot of your time to set up and do. It was well worth the short wait on our part.
    Facts beat guessing and this is useful to see in print.
    Chill Wills

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Tests beat folklore every time

  7. #27
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    thanx for the good testing, larry. the results were in the ballpark of what i expected, too.

  8. #28
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    I have an extensive collection of Elmer's books/writings and I don't recall him mentioning blowing up any 44 specials!

  9. #29
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    Forgot to mention I also pressure tested 19 gr 4fg with bran wheat filler under a 230 gr bullet and a duplication of the 1887 "government 45" which is the Schofield case with a 230 gr bullet over 28 gr of BP (GOEX Cartridge). Neither had sufficient pressure to measure so they were less than 11,300 psi.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  10. #30
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    Thank you for the test and results and your time , this should put to rest some of the chatter , except with the died in the wool you will put your eye out types . I remember my first time shooting black powder when the so called local expert told me the philidelphia deringer would not burn more then a 380acp case of powder , would hardly make it to the target .

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    thanx for the good testing, larry. the results were in the ballpark of what i expected, too.
    same here !

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithnframe View Post
    I have an extensive collection of Elmer's books/writings and I don't recall him mentioning blowing up any 44 specials!
    Story I read was he blew up a 45 colt using 45/70 pills in it ?

  13. #33
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    Larry, thanks so much for your time and effort. I am thinking this is a satisfactory argument from a strictly scientific approach ... to put to rest ... leastwise in my mind ... to put this 4Fg bugaboo to rest.

    Thank you very much for your published report on numbers discovered.

    Can we defray some costs for you?

  14. #34
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    Well, I went ahead and played a bit. I cast some 200 rnfp Lee from Seine net weights and pan lubed them with boot dressing/ paraffin lube. My priming flask throws 23+/- grs of 4F. I hand scattered maltomeal into the cases( unsized, primed and flared) then hand seated the boolits and crimped them in the seating die. It' worth noting that the shorter OAL rounds impacted lower on the target. My filler depth was inconsistent .They were fun to shoot with no ear protection needed. Next time I'll just use 100% loading density. They have potential, but I'm filing this knowledge away for a very rainy day! Thanks for the myth busting, Mr Gibson.
    I wonder how old the round face primers are? A CCI LP is shown for comparison.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  15. #35
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    Nice!!! Betcha that was fun ... sure looks like fun.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigted View Post
    Nice!!! Betcha that was fun ... sure looks like fun.
    Thanks! It was, except for the cleaning up part! Which reminds me, l left those washed brass on top of the well house- I'd better get them before the cats scatter them.

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  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy ELFEGO BACA's Avatar
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    I’ve used maximum charges of FFFFg pushing round balls out of my Ruger Old Army without problems.
    Can our government survive the next 4 years?

  18. #38
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    I just continue to be amazed about how normally cognizant educated with plenty of experience and common sense folks will continue to be fooled ... and argue to no end ... over old wives tales pertaining to loading and shooting black powder.

    Some of these tales have been around for the longest time and come to find out ... absolutely no scientific proof one way or the other. Yet the proponents still dramatically defend and still demand adherence to ... when all the time come to find out ... they could not be any more false.

    I have been guilty of just this sorta nonsense myself. I now back up a bit and ask the question ... where is the proof, one way or the other?

    I for one will ... in the future ... stop myself from knee jerk remarks ... and think about a couple things ... before continuing the unfounded facts of a subject that I have been "educated" to believe. Embarrassing to say the least.

    Many thanks ... again ... to folks that take the time and effort to find actual facts to report ... contrary to popular belief.

    At this point ... I am in the midst of finding the "truth" concerning compressed black powder loading ... in a most un-scientific procedures. My "education" has been to use at least .050 to .300 inch compression to obtain accuracy. This fly's in the face of what happens to black powder kernels upon compression. Mainly the crushing that takes place and the certain UN-UN-consistent state this leaves the charge.
    Last edited by bigted; 12-24-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  19. #39
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    I'm in agreement with Ted; don't know how many times I have heard (and repeated!) that ffffg powder in cartridge guns was dangerous, created erratic pressures, etc. The same holds true for use in muzzle loading guns.
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  20. #40
    Boolit Master Ozark mike's Avatar
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    Figure i would preform CPR on a dead thread an ask what other wepons yall like to load warm with black powder. I like fffg in the 45-70s ffffg in 45 44mag 44c&b. Dont know how a 44wcf would do with finer powder since it has a slight bottle neck
    Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check