MidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2RepackboxInline Fabrication
WidenersTitan ReloadingLee PrecisionReloading Everything
Load Data
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: A "perfect" wildcat??? cartridge (large game) for paper-patching......

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    586

    A "perfect" wildcat??? cartridge (large game) for paper-patching......

    I have been thinking about this idea for some time, with the possible intention of building a new rifle from a milsurp Mauser. The desired parameters are : Calibre : 35 (.358 dia.)....Bullet weight : around 250 grains (soft cast, paper-patched)....Velocity : around 2000 fps, with pressures not to exceed 45000 psi. I LIKE low-pressure loads, because they are easier on the equipment....and I happen to be an adherant to the concept that there is no need to overdo it (which is why I don't care for magnums, in any form). The intended use is an all-around hunting rifle.....one which would serve for basically any North American game, out to perhaps 200 - 250 yards, maximum. The primary critters to be hunted would be Elk, Mule deer and Whitetail deer. Of course, the cartridge would be a bit heavy for Whitetail deer....but perfect for Elk. The distance parameter is based on the fact that I have no desire to shoot further....and the fact that I like the challenge of stalking closer, rather than sniping the animal from long range, with a magnum rifle (or anti-tank gun, as I affectionately refer to them).

    Of course, an obvious choice would be the 35 Whelen. While this is a great all around cartridge, I'd prefer something shorter.....that uses less powder. The 35 Whelen can certainly be loaded to the parameters I desire (they are well UNDER the potential of this cartridge)...however, the Whelen would be a bit of a waste for such modest requirements. I do want to keep this cartridge in the 8 x 57/ .30-06 "family" ....so that the base diameter, etc. will match one of the readily-available large-ring Mauser actions without modification.

    The basis for the rifle would definitely be either an M48, 24/47, K98K, or Vz24 - one of those. I have been shooting the 8 x 57 exclusively....and handloading for it....for about 6 years. Since I know this cartridge backwards and forwards, my first thought was a wildcat, based on the 8 x 57, necked up to take .358 bullets (35 cal.)....and keeping the same overall case length and shoulder position. However, I do not want to have custom reamers made (too much expense and a violation of the K.I.S.S. principle, which I hold very dear). So, I have pretty much decided that the closest matches for my design parameters that already exist (and for which reamers are available) would be either the 35 Rem., .... or the .358 Win. I am aware of a plethora of European variations, based on the 8 x 57, such as the 9.3 x 57, etc...... but I know little about these. Certainly, one of these could be a potential possibility.

    Anyway, I am interested in other's opinions and thoughts on this subject. Again, the intention is NOT to come up with a barn-burner....usable to shoot Alaskan Brown Bears at 1000 yds, etc......but only a relatively modest cartridge, which will be economical to load and shoot,with low wear and tear on the hardware, yet more effective for larger critters (such as Elk) than my 8 x 57 (M48). Something more in the direction of the .45-70, than in the direction of the 460 Weatherby Magnum....if you take my meaning. Obviously, good accuracy would be needed - that is a given. I believe that the .358 cal. would be a great choice for this concept....as would a target bullet weight of about 250 grains. (By the way, my M48 HATES bullets in the 220 - 240 grain range (I have tried them) ....so that is NOT really a possibility). 2000 fps or so, , with a 250 grain bullet, would provide all of the energy I could need, within the modest maximum distance I have specified. Soft cast, paper-patched bullets are a given - as I have so much fun with paper-patching for my M48 (and probably will never again shoot anything else).

    Anyway, right now, this is a mental exercise...but one about which I am getting more interested by the day. What do you guys think ???
    Last edited by bcp477; 11-03-2008 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    I disagree with you about the Whelen. It IS a 30-06 BTW, and in a .35 bore is no way anywhere near overbore. It will facilitate higher velocities at lower pressures because of the larger case capacities. The only problem I see is in ctg length if you long throat it for your PP boolits or size them to fit inside the bore - the mauser magazines aren't long enough.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,947
    What about a 38/57?
    Not quite a .40, larger than .358. Fits in the magazine well. Jacketeds are available and the action is strong enough.
    Lots of molds for paper, the route I would go.
    That is the direction I was going to go untill my wife said she wanted to shoot with me. I went with the .30s never figuiring she could handle the .308, and 30-06 like she does.
    I had tossed around a .375 paper patched in a rimless cartridge. 38/55 is a good target cartridge, good close range hunter. A tad more, and I think that would shine real bright.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    586
    Leftiye,

    I know what the 35 Whelen is (a .30-06, necked up to take .358" bullets). It is still a possibility....I haven't dismissed anything. However, I do think it a bit of a waste, as it would need to be underloaded quite a lot to get to the parameters I want. However, who knows ?.... it might end up being the best choice. Of course, you are correct in that higher velocities could be gotten with it, with low pressures. So, as I say, I haven't dismissed the idea. Overall cartridge length is a concern, as I do not want to have to modify the magazine box (again, the K.I.S.S. principle).

    Docone31,

    Hmmmm......38/57 you say ? I know nothing of this cartridge - I don't think I've ever heard of it. Interesting. I'll make a note of it and do some research. Thanks.

    Hmmm, I just found some information on the 9 x 57, which sounds as if it is nearly spot-on to my requirements. However, 9mm bullets, depending on the exact diameter used, might be a problem.

    9.3 x 57 sounds as if it is a real possibility, depending on the details....but the odd-size (for the US) bullet might be an issue. At least reamers are available for this one.
    Last edited by bcp477; 11-03-2008 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Central Massachusetts, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,283
    bcp477,
    I think that the .358 Winchester might be a good choice. It will push a jacketed bullet to a little over 2500 fps with a full load. A 2000fps cast boolit should work in the pressure range that you need.
    I`ve only shot 205 gr boolits from my .358 BLR, but found the accuracy and low recoil suit me well.

    Jack

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,947
    Well, you did say wildcat.
    That would use the standard -06 cartridge and be blown out to .375. The .473 base should still be in proportion.
    The 38/55 is actually .375 in diamter.
    Why not rimless and .375 a little less potent than .375 H&H?
    There was a time for me, when hot was good. Compressed loads of smokeless, huge craters in primers, amazing recoil and muzzle blast.
    That was then.
    Oopsie, I did not invent that one.
    It is the .375 Whelen improved!
    Still looks like a winner. A good paper patcher also, should fit directly in a mauser action. When the fingers get too stiff to wrap, jacketeds make it shine.
    Now, on a good 98K action, what a rig!
    No one can steal it. There is no commercial ammo ever made for it.
    I can see the Lyman 57D reciever sight, and AUG front sight, perhaps even a spirit level.
    Now, that is for an heavy barrel. The only way to go. Of course octagonal..........
    I picture the original stock, with upper handguard, converted to heavy barrel, with field recoil pad.
    Show up at the range with that one day, touch off a round, and see who notices.
    Do it in paper.
    Dang, if I get the chance I would love to make one! A good full bore target rifle. With black powder....... Hah!
    Gads, my pants just got shorter. I love the idea.

  7. #7
    Grouchy Old Curmudgeon

    shooter93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,795
    It's rimmed which may be a problem for you but I have done quite a bit of work with 35 krag. Mine is on a Krag action so pressures matter. I've been shooting 250 grain cast and 225 grain Nosler ballistic tips. Both in the 2150-2250 fps range. This is a true full blown custom sporter . I did the testing over the last two years, and over 1,000 rounds. I experimented with two separate barrels and I'm more than satisfied. Now it's off to be finished, rust blued and checkered.The case has lots of neck which I like. It's capacity is slightly larger than a 358 Win. I like the round a lot and I'm going to have a PP mold made for it but I have no doubts it will shoot them as well.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,947
    I like the Krag. It just kinda feels good.
    The Mauser though, is like a Mack Truck. Not the new ones that crumple when started, the old 'B' Models.
    Accesories galore, triggers, stocks, non military magazine wells and gates.
    Even the stock only needs wood on the grip to flatten the wrist.
    A semi straight walled .375. On paper....
    Gosh, if I had a Krag, I would just leave it be. It is a good rifle.
    I hope you post a photo when it is finished. I bet it will be a work of art!
    I save photos of our finished rifles to use as screen savers. I have a nice double in front of me when the line is off.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    I didnt read through all this but just saw that you thought the 9x57 would fit your needs.
    Thought I would mention that we have a VZ24 bored and chambered to 9x57 but with a .358" groove barrel.
    You may pm me if interested.
    BIC/BS

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    scb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,199
    Seems a 358 Win. will do everything you're looking for without the expense of a wildcat. What most die companies are charging for wildcat dies is almost obscene.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
    Benjamin Franklin

    Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.
    James Madison



  11. #11
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    19,340
    I did convert a 8X57 VZ24 to .358 Win. Took quite a bit of fudging around with the follower, and feed rails, to get acceptable feed. As much as I love the .358W, I would suggest staying away from anything based on the .308 case in a conversion from 8X57, as they are the most notorious for feeding issues, even in modern rifles. I really like the idea of the .358X57 you mentioned. I can imagine doing some annealing, drilling, and polishing on some standard 8X57 dies to make something that would load the cartridge, without any special dies being ordered. This would depend on how good a machine shop you have on hand.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    Waksupi
    We are loading our 9x57 with 35 whelen imp dies. We fireformed 8x57 brass. The Whelen dies size the head and half of the neck without touching the shoulder, shoots great. About feeding this one works great. I had a stash of old origonal Barns 250gn spt and they shoot and feed slick as you please.
    BIC/BS

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    3,113
    There is a line of wildcats based on the 06 case and offered by Z Hat rifles. The three you might consider are the 358 Hawk, the 375 Hawk and the 411 Hawk.

    I have no personal experience with them but a buddy has the 411 and likes it a lot. He describes it as his bolt action 405 WCF.

    Here's a link

    http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

    I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.

    Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    23
    9.3x62mm was designed to be "large calibre in a Mauser 98 magazine". It is quite popular in Scandinavia for moose and boar.

    And all the manufacturers make dies for it.



    .... sounds like a fun project.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    586
    Interesting comments and suggestions, one and all. A big thank you to everyone - I am grateful for your help..... and will continue to be so, in future.

    So far, I'd say that 9 x 57 ("9mm Mauser") is the leading contender, but only if bumped out to take .358" bullets, instead of the normal .355". I am very much still in the early stages of even considering the whole idea, so no definite decisions will be taken for some time. I am pleased to hear that a couple of you guys already have rifles in this calibre, even "bumped" to .358". I'll consider all that I've heard very carefully.

    I am disappointed to hear that feeding problems are common with the .358 Win. That is/was my leading choice of cartridges (of those that can be considered standard production). The .358 Win. has a big advantage over the .35 Rem....so, probably that one will not be considered much further. Nevertheless, as I said, I have made no final decision.

    I have pretty much decided, unless new information presents, that I don't want to go out to the range of .375" bullets. With the 8 x 57 case, that would leave only a relatively tiny shoulder - and I am afraid that headspace problems could be the result. With a rimmed case, it wouldn't matter, nor would it be an issue with a belted (magnum) case...but it could well be a real problem working from the 8 x 57 case. As much as I like the idea of a straight-walled (or almost straight-walled) case....and this does appeal to me a lot....I do want to keep the concept simple and avoid serious technical problems. Heck, while first playing with the idea, I considered a true straight-walled case, with blowing out the 8 x 57 as the model. That would give a potential bullet diameter of about .41". Except that, being that the 8 x 57 is a rimless case, there would be nothing (except for case taper) to headspace onto. So, that is not practical. In addition, with such a large bullet in a case having the volume of the 8 x 57, this would likely present difficulties in getting up to 2000 fps, in the first place. I fear that that would be a problem with bullets in the .375" range, too. Besides, there is a very good selection of 35-cal bullets available, which is another important point for me. I don't cast my own - and I probably won't be doing so in the future - so bullet availability is quite important.

    Anyway, there is lots more to consider - and I am in no hurry. I will continue to research the matter - and ponder the possibilities. Thanks to all, again.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,947
    There is nothing wrong with a .35. I used to use 180gn .357 sillywet jacketeds in my XP100. A 35 Whelen would be a fantastic load.
    I wouldn't worry about the shoulder though.
    Good luck with your project.
    There are sure a lot of folks who have lots of input. I wish I had that acess when I built my two .243s. I also wish I had done paper patching also. Now I have these two rifles that are my backups rather than the primes they were built for.
    Great luck on that rifle. I hope you post photos as you can.
    I use them as my screen shot.

  17. #17
    Banner Sponsor

    lar45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    2,823
    It's not a wildcat, but the 9.3x57 is an impressive round.
    There was one at the Linebaugh seminar this spring and it shot a solid brass bullet through 5 feet of wet newsprint.
    It was a very mild recoiling rifle also.

    The 338 Federal might be a nice choice also.

  18. #18
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    19,340
    Keep in mind, if you can find a factory rifle already chambered in .243, .308, .260 Rem, these are chambered to use the parent .308 cartridge body, and make for an easy conversion to a .358 Win.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    3,113
    Quote Originally Posted by bcp477 View Post
    I have pretty much decided, unless new information presents, that I don't want to go out to the range of .375" bullets. With the 8 x 57 case, that would leave only a relatively tiny shoulder - and I am afraid that headspace problems could be the result.
    The 375 should give you no problem with the Mauser case. However, if you want to completely eliminate any chance of headspace problems do like Griffin & Howe did with the 400 Whelen and increase the diameter of the shoulder. In the rifles chambered by G&H and loaded with dies prepared by them there were no problems. Same with Z Hat.

    Ackley had the same results with his "Improved" cartridges. Blown out shoulder to increase capacity and improve headspacing.

    Good luck.
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

    I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.

    Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    I think I'll rechamber my .38-55 to .375 H&H. Kick um butt! (maybe mine?)
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check