350 Legend and Cast Boolits

[Oldfeller]

Just started going through the recovery steps on my 500 piece recent lot of what was supposed to be Winchester 350 Legend factory test range once fired brass that I had purchased from Nerereloading.com.

Only one (1) case seen that was long beyond the 1.710" factory trim length and that one was 1.716" long. But there was Hornady brass and Federal brass and a nameless foreign brass mixed in with the Winchester brass.

I found nearly two dozen Hornady brand cases that would not slide into the LEE shell holder on my press. These were oversized on the rim diameter, measuring .380" against a .378" maximum rim "as machined" spec. This .002" Hornady machining error was able to be corrected with a needle file while spinning the case in a cordless drill, but was a PITA to do.

One case was seen with a blown primer due to simple over pressure, but this was NOT associated with an over length case as it has been in the past. Just too much powder looks like. I am sure there are more variations on this too much powder theme in my 500 piece population, but that is why I have a custom LEE .388" push through die to use as a very last step bulge buster.

And let me simply say THERE ARE BULGES to bust in this mixed brand 350 Legend brass that came from God knows were. The most regular looking and generally nicest brass is the Winchester which came from the bolt action rifles, most ejection dented and mouth mangled, head damaged and ramp bulged cases came from an AR action.

I have reconsidered even trying to hit the hottest loading possible for this batch of mixed brass, as I can see it would be detrimental to both the mixed brand brass and to the locking splines both on the bolt head and in the barrel. So I chose to decline to load a whole bunch of rounds loaded up that hot. 2200 to 2400 fps is plenty enough, as the designed expansion of the ZERO brand 147 grain bullet only needs 1000 to 1200 fps to get it to open up (so I would have to shoot it beyond 300 yards to start to lose any real amounts of expansion, in other words).

First, my old diabetic eyes can't see clearly that far even over cleared fields in North Carolina and I would certainly lose the ability to dope out the ever increasing amount of bullet drop well before then ......

Once again, I have two flat shooting inside 400 yard scoped 7mm rifles that simply do a much better job for longer distance work like that.

[rickt300]

I gotta hand it to ya Oldfellar you have much patience!

[Oldfeller]

No, I had no more patience than you have when I was your age, likely less. Now being an old crip diabetic with a heart valve replacement and other issues means you go slower and have more time to think about things .......

[cwlongshot]

I too have tossed many a case that wont fit a shell holder.

IMHO its a result of a gross over pressure.

I also have and shoot a 25/45 Sharps. They claim 3000 fps with a 87g bullet just like the Savage 250 of yester year... Well It about does it but at a cost of brass!!Almost 1/2 of the fired brass has loose primer pockets and would not fit shell holders.

I bought large quantity of 350Brass from a man testing pressures in the chamber and the brass has a mark on the brass. It largely disappears with your first firing. It has never been a issue.
I find both of these calibers pushing the limits of the ar15 action. My Bolt 350 can & does handle loads far better. I dont have a bolt 25/45, but find I do not need to push it as hard as factory loadings to preform on game. Its best to toss these problem cases. There subject to things we cannot see. Brass is cheap even when expensive... its cheap and priceless for peace of mind.

CW

CW

[Oldfeller]

See, I told you this was the group that would have ruptured a 350 Legend case early on if anybody was going to do it ........



I think Hornady just mismachined some case head cuts, as the primer pockets were still tight and the headstamps were clear and even.

If you overexpanded a case head .002" you would have evidence of leaking gas all over the case head, the stamping itself would be mangled by the bolt face and the web area just up from the head would be bulging and pregnant looking and this simply wasn't so ....... Plus I had a lot of them to look at intimately while I fixed them, and they were both consistent and a lot prettier than blown up brass would be.

Hornady might be some ugly pressure soft brass, but I don't know about that. I didn't see it, personally. Thinking on the 1200 fps required to open a 147 grain Zero subsonic 9mm up all the way means a launch speed of 2200 to 2400 is plenty enough to shoot the gun a lot further than I can see to shoot it, and if I ever have to shoot me a feral two legged pig it will be at relatively much much closer ranges.

So, I can stay relatively more reasonable on my AR loadings .......

Rifles are stronger actions, and that also makes them safer to play the edgy loading games with. AR actions are mechanically "looser" actions and your brass will generally show the signs of over pressure more clearly on the headstamp surface markings in an AR compared to a bolt gun.


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Now to say some good things about Nerereloading.com, I messaged Nick about not getting 100% Winchester brass from the Winchester testing range. He had no explanation for how some competitive brass got into the Winchester scrap barrel and he wanted to see some samples to forward back to his source. He also sent 200 replacement cases to cover my trouble and apologized profusely.

[cwlongshot]

NOT. Necessarily true!!!

I have personally seen a bullet case swelled into the bolt so solidly they where very difficult to remove!!!!! In less supported chambers blown out AND SWELLED!! I have one of those myself.

A setious over pressure SEALS that chamber VERY EFFICIENTLY!!!

[popper]

This is over pressure!

[cwlongshot]

This is over pressure!

Yes sir!!

[mehavey]

IMHO: That's not "overpressure," per se.
Rather, it's early extraction while still under pressure.

(That kind of case swell cannot happen while case is still fully seated in chamber)

[Oldfeller]

Weeeeeel now ........ a pregnant guppy bulge in the web area is a precursor to a full on case rupture, and is often accompanied by a leaky overexpanded primer pocket.

My Hornady brass with the mis-cut head and groove wasn't guppied nor was it leaky primered nor was it crushed to any serious degree on the headstamp. It was mis-cut when it was made.

*(I done told you this was the home of the case blowers anonymous group meetings)

I did most of my primer rupture work playing games with a Savage 7mm Rem Mag, I replaced ejector pushers and springs on that gun several times when I brazed & welded the pusher into the hole it lives in as the blown primer gas path went down that hole on its way across the bolt face.

Har, I recognize me ugly blown brass when I sees it .....

*<grin>

[cwlongshot]

IMHO: That's not "overpressure," per se.
Rather, it's early extraction while still under pressure.

(That kind of case swell cannot happen while case is still fully seated in chamber)

Well we do not "KNOW" it was a ar-15 but appears to me a 300 blk case. If a AR, itbis of coarse a locked breech so early extraction ESP with its shorter dwell is rather unlikely.

But yes it appears early extraction.

[mehavey]

Y'all have seen this post before...
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...8&postcount=93

I leave to the GentleReaders as to what's really going on here.
I do not believe we're seeing simple "overpressure" in such instances.

[Oldfeller]

I think the nature of the beast and the faster powders that sometimes gets used in it can lead to occasional pressure spikes upon firing powders that puffer fish the web area some, ironing the web (and occasionally part of the head and the un-sized portion of the case wall) into whatever that gun uses for a loading ramp shape.

Firing partially out of battery or early unlock are other possible explanations. Folks who regularly eat barrels say their splines are being eat up on one side by hundreds of partial out of battery firings. That is a buffer spring and bolt carrier problem that needs fixing, BTW.

I am currently push through final sizing "or some call it bulge busting" 200 Winchester cases that are the prettiest I think I have ever seen. But 1 in 10 cases still needs significant pressure on the lever to go through the tight sizing portion of the bulge buster die and the sizing marks left on the web do outline a ramp looking form.

One case that I have seen so far had enough over pressure to possibly loosen the primer pocket, but I checked the pocket post bulge busting I believe it is healed well enough to grip a primer well enough.

The widespread common use of Lil'Gun powder in this round also supports doing this ongoing bulge busting activity.

The bulge buster is a custom LEE push through sizing die made to a .388" diameter (gaged tight on a .388" pin gage and yes you have to tell LEE this instruction or they can send you a sloppy loose die that was built to rough size a lead bullet).

REMEMBER, TELL THEM IT IS A CASE RESIZING DIE and give them the exact measuring method to use when making it or else you will get a die with a form that is intended to "approximately size" a lead bullet to .388" ........

[Oldfeller]

Interesting dipper idea .......

Lee does not make the dipper you need for any easy to do "max like" loadings in the 350 Legend. But, I found a case that you can solder a wire handle on to that throws 27.8 grains of WC820. It will do similarly with most of the common Legend powders as they all have about the same volumetric weights (according to the LEE dipper charts, anyway).

Ain't hard to find either. 27.8 grains is plenty close enough to 28 grains for dipper work, IMHO.

It is a 45 acp case (as fired and not re-sized).


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Also note it is easy to shorten the case to adjust the powder weight if the load is a bit high. Mine now dips a repeatable 26.5-27.0 grains which is a comfortable load using my lot of WC820 bulk powder.

[Oldfeller]

While investigating and making scoops, I found that LEE had increased the scoop size for the .223 die set to 1.7cc and had created a new scoop to do that with.

Lee now wants $7.50 for a single 1.7cc scoop and $9.50 to ship it. A bit pricey, to say the least.

Titan Reloading wants $1.00 for the new scoop and $7.50 to ship it. Still pricey.

Container and Packaging Industries has a 1.7cc scoop for $1.76 per dozen and they provide free samples for approved accounts, but you have to pay the shipping at $7.50 for a small sample set of 10 scoops.

This is better for me dollar-wise, and it means I still get to avoid setting up and maintaining a powder measure that leaks the super fine WC820 all over the place while I am dispensing it.

<grin, so I am cheap, what else is new?>

[rickt300]

I have made many a dipper out of cut down 30-06 cases and a piece of wire tightened around the extractor groove for a handle. But I have bought a powder measure and now use it most of the time. The LEE I got cheap works pretty good actually.

[Oldfeller]

Most of LEE's stuff works fairly well, but the dipper kit I bought has replaced most of my adjustable measures in pistol and standard known rifle size uses. The 1.6cc dipper is a good minimum for the Legend "it will cycle the action" powder charge and the 1.7cc dipper is a good midrange to upper end powder charge with my WC820 powder. I hesitated to go with 1.9cc powder loads in WC820, thinking them to be a bridge too far at 28.9 grains of powder.

However, I tried a set of 1.9cc dippered loads and they actually did OK as a fairly stiff upper end load. I don't think I will try anything beyond that as 28.9 grains is pushing thing a bit and I like my gun enough to not want to hurt it.

Load density is 95% and that is only because I can seat the bullet way out due to my custom lapped throating job. It all works together well as I am filling up a standard steel magazine length at the same time I max out on the load density.


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Why stick with using a dipper? I own two of the rotating drum LEE adjustable measures that I fitted to the rapid change LEE 3 and 4 hole rotating top plates that get used in the original LEE 3 steel post turret presses. (yes, I added a retraction spring to the plate to pull it back down and I use it for charging rifle cases up to 7mm Rem Mag.

Errors in charging with both the slider style and the rotating drum style have caused me to basically prefer the dippers "as what you see is what you get" --- the dippers never can "hide" a bridged partial charge or a failure to charge situation like the slider and rotating drum styles can do.

Failure to charge with a slider type measure cost me a 380 pistol that I had given to a niece --- that and an idiot range officer at a commercial indoor range that tried to shoot out the resulting stuck bullet and my niece being dumb enough to let him try to do that.

Nicest bulged barrel you ever saw ......

[Oldfeller]

Let's talk Primers. Winchester silver colored small rifle primers vs Unis Ginex natural brass looking small rifle primers. Take the discussion in light of an Bear Creek Arsenal AR rifle that has been modified to extend the firing pin .060" from the bolt face and then let's go shoot some fairly stiff loads in the rifle and take some pictures of the primer strikes on the slightly overexpanded cases that have expanded out .002" on the web area just up from the head (with the head itself growing .0005").

You can recognize the darker bronze looking metal on the Unis Ginex primers vs the Winchester which is slightly more silver. I think the Winchesters are perhaps a slightly harder cup metal.

I think both primers did their jobs and although the Winchester mebbe cratered a tiny tad more than the Ginex neither one failed by trying to pierce and leak on me in any fashion.

Both look like the results of a fairly stiff round, but well within what you would expect to see when going a bit past a book max loading.

[Oldfeller]

Esoterica

The row of four has 1.9cc of powder, the row of two has 1.7cc of powder.

The row of two used pure WC820, the row of 4 used take down from pulling all my odd creations, creating a mix of ~90%~ WC820 and ~10%~ BLC2. Obviously, this mix was slower in build up pressure, but peaked later with more gas volume produced (judging from more case web expansion, more head expansion and producing a noticeably larger muzzle blast.

BLC2 is noted in my load notes as not burning completely in a 350 Legend when used in full case loads. Lots of partially burned granules in barrel and gas system --- It is a "too slow" powder for the Legend. As the minority element of a blend mixture it acts as a burn slowing agent or as some here call it -- a burnable filler -- and it acts in a beneficial manner.

The 90-10 blend mixture burns very completely and makes no smoke at all, so it is relatively clean burning with zero mummies or other residues.

I do not believe in witchcraft or alchemy, but the pull mixture did better than either of the parent powders could do.



Based on my current knowledge, I have built another scoop at 28.3 grains of the 90-10 mixture. It was based on a 350 Legend case so it is relatively more consistent doing the scooped load, being narrow and tall rather than short and fat with a wide mouth.

[rickt300]

Well after burning up 150 primers or so in pursuit of a functioning, accurate load in my AR I see that I am running low on I4227. I have a container of H110 and I have seen some posts bemoaning it as being erratic in the Legend. All I really want is 1800-1900fps under either the 182 grain or 200 grain cast bullets. I could go a bit faster if needed but those speeds are fine with me. Is H110 satisfactory for these speeds? Also I have been installing the gas check after powder coating while sizing, is this best?