The bullet 170gn truncated with GC is from Matts bullets: https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...roducts_id=341 . Not sure the mold used. AOL will be about 2.1, 16" AR upper.Originally Posted by P Flados
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The bullet 170gn truncated with GC is from Matts bullets: https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...roducts_id=341 . Not sure the mold used. AOL will be about 2.1, 16" AR upper.
That enforcer sure does have some high pressure. Still cannot find the Norma 200, I look every couple days or so. Thanks for the info Sir.
Well, back to my Legendary learning curve.
I find that nothing that I have made of cast of lead will consistently load out of my Modified .556 milsurp brass. I got some moderate encouraging results from this jacketed commercial 147 grain subsonic from Zero mfg. and I have gotten them to load and shuck reliably out of once fired and processed Winchester brass.
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A deeply hollow pointed cavity and deep through skiving on the jacket nose is the basis of Zero saying these bullets will open up when fired out of a 4-5 inch barrel 9mm pistol at speeds of circa 1,000 fps.
This is a commercial subsonic 9mm bullet that struggles to open out of pistols, but my 350 Legend will send it booking at over double that speed so I have my self defense and pig bullet for the 350 Legend upper.
I can put together a nice magazine filling load with this bullet as I can put a good bit of bullet out in front of the case. (rifle has been throated to permit .200" length of .3565" full diameter before nose form starts)
No jacketed bullet is cheap any more, and these are $219 for 2,000 (10.1 cents each) from BenStoger.
I am considering using a hexagonal boron nitride dry powder lube on the bulk bullets when they arrive, then I will do all load development with that as case pressures will be reduced a bit and the barrel and the gas system will see a trace of dry powder lubrication
Last edited by Oldfeller; 12-26-2021 at 08:09 PM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
That bullet is not in the Quickload database. Can you measure the length.
.670" nose to base
Last edited by Oldfeller; 12-26-2021 at 08:15 PM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
Quickload predicted a pressure 6800 psi lower than the Ramshot test data for a 170 in the 357 max.
I took the 350L limit (55 ksi) subtracted the 6.8 ksi based on the above and used Quickload to find out what charge would give the resultant 48.2 ksi. The answer was 23.25 gr of Enforcer under a 0.670" long 170 gr cast bullet loaded to an AOL of 2.100" gives a predicted velocity of 2117 fps from a 16" barrel. Case fill was 83.1 percent.
Practical experience with WC820 in the Legend says that 1.3 cc LEE dipper (approximately 18 grains) works all the way up to a 205 grain powder coated lead slug. Mild real pressure signs have been seen occasionally with the heavy bullets but accuracy was good. This was shot with both Winchester brass and my reformed .556 stuff.
1.6 cc dipper (24 grains) goes under 158 grain lead slugs with no real case head pressure signs, simply flattened primers. This flat primer flattening comes with the case being short in the chamber and the primer strikes being "light" accordingly. Primer comes partially out of the case upon ignition and gets slammed back into place by the case head hitting the bolt face after transiting the chamber clearance.
I need a round that loads and fires and cycles the gun. I would make up a small baggie of 1.3 dipper and like 5 rounds of 1.6 dipper and see what the gun and the brass tell me about how well it works.
But, before I do that I have feeding and extraction issues to resolve ...... lead has not been user friendly in my gun so far, but jacketed has been better.
Second thought, white hex boron nitride bullet coating is probably not a good idea as the case grips the bullet lightly enough as is. Powder sugared bullets would likely get wiggled and pull themselves during repeated feeding cycling .......
Last edited by Oldfeller; 12-27-2021 at 04:02 AM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
Mehavey, you seem to like Norma 200 for the legend.
I was looked at it when I ran the Quickload table that compares powders. It did not do very well given that I had my compression limit set pretty low. I found I needed to run it more than 15% compressed to get comparable results with more typical 350L powders.
I then looked it up on the burn rate charts and found that it compares to 4198.
With my AR-15 based 357Max AR, just for the heck of it I tried WC 844 (milsurp H335) and found that it burned too dirty for smooth operation.
Does Norma 200 burn clean in the 350L?
Burns very clean -- and as you noted, runs best when compressed (QL-indicated) at ~105-107% or so.
(Actual compression start at indicated 103/4%)
Burn Rates are only at the start of combustion/pressure-rise. What happens after ignition depends
on a dogs breakfast of a whole lotta other factors.
- Burn Rate/sec (at zero pressure/start)
- Energy content (Heat/Kg)
- Ratio of specific heats (specific heat at constant pressure vs and the specific heat at constant volume)
- Progressive (or de-gressive) burning rate (with increasing pressure)
- Progressive burning limit (at which point it quits increasing pressure)
- ...and last but not least: a "Factor b" to balance the thermodynamics.
Still, I find I have to adjust Ba after actual calibration shots when developing loads.
(Cast seems to run 0.582-0.588, while jacketed runs 0.555 for Norma 200).
One last note -- when I run QL looking for load matches, I look for
- Velocity (max if it fits the three criteria below)
- Pressure range depending on bullet alloy/lube/coating/etc)
- Burn completion (94-95%)
- Case fill; (95%-108%)
That will usually give me a half-dozen candidate/options -- to start.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FWIW: RL7 runs a 'decent' second -- heavily compressed (111%) --
so best with jacketed that can stand being used in "compression-die" mode
Last edited by mehavey; 12-27-2021 at 08:51 AM.
Thanks for the INFO!!! Just ordered QTY-500 of these to test out. Will be trying them in the Legend as I have a good 147gn truncated load that works good if I use the CMMG magazine, does not like the Wilson Combat mags. Anyhow, I bet they will work great in the AR9 too.
Happy New Year!
I just tested those Zero 147 JHP that oldfeller talked about. Made up four of them at 2.065 col with 27.3gn of the powder we dont talk about (LOL). Tested for function by way of fast fire, at about a round a second so I was back covering the 6" target @ 25yrd as I squeezed off the next round while standing. All four functioned as intended with the Wilson Combat Mag with NO pressure sign at all.
During my mag test the metal type Mags didn't feed well during the feed and shuck test but the Wilson Mag was flawless both ways. I will test the metal type at a later date and update.
I think this will be one of my reloading options for the Legend.
This weekend I will have the 175gn cast with GC from Matts Bullets loaded up with Enforcer and I will report back with that too.
Just so folks know what worked in MY GUN I will list the components I used.
AR15 with AR Stoner 350 Legend Upper, standard AR15 556 spring and buffer used in the DPMS lower, Wilson Combat Mag.
Zero 147gn JHP.
Winchester and Star Line brass, two of each.
2.065" col
27.3gn of Lil' Gun. Be careful with this powder, you CANNOT use reduced loads with it.
Research your powders and components before you use them. What works for me may not work for you.
I had NO pressure sign at all, the gun functioned/cycled flawlessly with the above components.
Jerry, you got your bullets very quickly compared to what I have been seeing in NC. I got my first 250 by mail order several months ago and I now have the 2,000 piece lot being delivered today or tomorrow.
Powder coated cast lead gets complications when hitting my feed ramp, which is why I think I will be better feeding the jacketed slugs when doing rapid shooting.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
I had good luck with feeding 147 truncated cast Hitek but the speed at what i had to push them with LIL Gun was removing the coating and accuracy was terrible. It did not lead the barrel as I caught it just after a few rounds. I need to find a powder that I can make reduced loads with or GC them. After having that issue I have not tried my powder coated bullets with LIL Gun as I figured those would have the same fate without the GC. Strangely enough the 147 truncated jacketed bullets dont feed as well as the Hitek did, need to revisit that as I am sure its just something very simple to fix, they are different molds so the COL is likely the issue and I need to increase or back off the jacketed type to get the same results.
After I make the cast 175 from Matts I am going to do some serious polishing on the feed areas and try some loads I have made that didnt cut it. Might even do a bit of removal if needed then polish again. I will have to ink it first and see what is going on before I get that extreme with it.
What was your load components for the Zero 147
Not sure why I got mine so fast. I hope yours show up soon.
Still cannot find any Norma 200.
Kerry
Barring Norma-200 availability, I suggest RL-7 (not Lil`Gun)
See https://www.marlinowners.com/threads...9/post-8072661
As far as powder, I suggest any of the Eastwood "Mirror" colors.
Kerry,
I shoot milsurp pull down powders as when I bought them I could get an 8 pound jug for $27-$35 a jug. My go to powder for 350 Legend is WC820 (between AA#9 and H110 in burn speed). I have a jug and a third of WC 820 left, so I am good for a while now. I scoop the powder with LEE dipper 1.6cc which gives me 24-25 grains of powder. Light slugs (circa 124 grain) show no pressure signs, 150-180 grain slugs show some mild pressure signs and 200 grain slugs show significant pressure to the point where I back down to the 1.3cc dipper for the heavy bullets.
My needs are to have enough gas to cycle the action and enough pressure to burn the powder cleanly. My velocity requirements are generally always easily met since I only shoot at ranges of 50-60 yards when shooting at any meat animals. My lead slugs always exited, but some of my jacketed slugs do not make it all the way through but I think that is to be expected as they make nice stretch cavities and they do kill animals quite a bit quicker than a lead slug's straight punch through hole.
Last edited by Oldfeller; 01-07-2022 at 12:09 PM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
Good Day Folks,
This is a bit late. I did get to load and shoot the Matts Bullets 170GN GC Truncated bullet. It was just on my 20yrd test/pistol range as I was testing for function and pressure signs. Anyhow, they worked just fine in the Wilson combat mags. COL is 2.06" with just a touch of crimp. Powder, yes I know its not the recommend but I have good luck with it, LIL Gun @ 26.7GN. I used both Starline and Winchester brass, to see if there was a difference. I loaded up 30 of them 50/50. However I had two SL brass that showed just a hint of primer flattening, I MEAN JUST A HINT. If I would not have had my safety glasses with the reader bifocal I likely would have never seen it. Perhaps I got aggressive with the primer install, not sure at this point, I will inspect primers before hand on the next test this coming weekend out at my other property with the rifle range. Maybe next month I will get to use the Enforcer powder and report back on that but, it seems like its pretty high pressure as well.
Kerry
Sporadic flattening on a load that shoots good can just be related to the primer backing out as the primer goes off and then the primer getting pushed back in when the main charge goes off. With headspacing on the mouth, you may find this to be "normal" for your gun.
Unless you rounds are very inconsistent for power (frequently associated with some form of stringing on the target) your best primers for indicating pressure are generally the ones with the least amount of flattening.
Last edited by P Flados; 01-24-2022 at 01:58 PM.
Thanks for the info Sir, I will keep an eye on it. That could explain why it was only two of them.
My Dillon powder measure is always consistent but there is no harm in more spot checking as I am working the press. With these I only checked the first four and the last one.
My 357AR Max (nearly identical to the 350L) had a similar pattern of flattening that made me worry about pressure. Later I saw the "back out / push back in" explanation posted for some other topic again (I had seen it before) and immediately said to myself "so that is what was going on".
T'was me in the discussions about extending the reach of the firing pin on my Bear Creek upper when using 5.56 converted brass. FYI, still haven't seen a pierced primer, but I have seen a goodly number of light looking strikes on some very flat looking primers ......
(case is moved forward in the .040" chamber slop during loading from the magazine (brass is .040" shorter than Legend spec.) and the primer always gets a light strike from the .060" protruding firing pin nose. Primer then blows out of the case .040" and then gets mashed back to flat by the bolt face in the carrier when the case settles back in the chamber during firing. Case length grows .010" to .015" due to case expansion & dragging and pulling on the length of the case walls during the firing cycle.
So far, no signs of case separation or expansion "wall thinning" have been seen.
Please remember the high scrap rate involved in converting 5.56 brass and all the steps I had to use to safely make my reformed 5.56 brass and once again, this is an advanced high risk sorta trick THAT IS PRONE TO FEEDING FAILURE.
** This isn't recommended at all if you can find some once fired 350 Legend brass to purchase **
Far far too much aggravation and scrap is involved in reforming 5.56 brass into 350 Legend brass.
Bluntly stated, 5.56 conversions can also fail to feed from the magazine pretty regularly as the rounds want to slide backwards in the magazine which causes some bolt carrier pickup skip overs and some chambering alignment issues. This can result in enough chambering drag that in turn can result in failure to rotate the bolt head completely closed (system runs out of return spring energy too soon). The poorly rotated bolt head won't move the firing pin freely....... and you got you a failure to fire mess again.
The converted cases also will sometimes stick in the chamber taper, so that is a further irritation.
Tappy Tappy with the knock out rod fixes that issue, but how much more aggravation can you take ?
Somebody with a bolt gun might get some use out of this stuff. It could also be changed over into 357 AR fairly easily by a full length resizing job.
PM me if you want this stuff ........ 250 converted cases and some converted AR plastic magazines. I need some more 350 Legend Winchester brass in exchange if possible ...... if not don't sweat it.
================================================== ===========
** Found me some 350 Legend once fired Winchester brass at Nerereloading for $42 per hundred (10% off on an order of 5 packs). I will be pulling all the lead out of my 5.56 converted cases and recovering the powder, then I will process the Winchester brass for primer pocket and full length resize them. Then I will put 147 grain Zero bullets into the Winchester cases on top of 1.6cc of WC820 which now makes up my banging about load and my default pig load.
Last edited by Oldfeller; 01-26-2022 at 08:16 PM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
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