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Thread: The Kit Gun, revisited

  1. #41
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    The consensus for cartridge seems to be hovering around .22 LR, 32 S&W Long, 38 Special - which makes perfect sense.

    The advent of the .327 Federal and the Ruger SP101 chambered for that cartridge may turn out to be a game changer. I wish the SP101 was a tad lighter but the option of 32 S&W Long and two different magnum cartridges in the same stainless, compact gun is attractive.

    The .22 gets a lot of love and that makes sense. You get a lot more ammunition in the same size/weight as the larger rounds. The S&W Model 63 embodies just about every trait that one would want - chambered in 22LR, stainless construction, small frame, good sights. But then we have the lighter weight options with some of the alloy frames but those tend to have some carbon steel parts.

    The 38 Special has the biggest penalty in terms of the weight of the ammunition but shines in terminal performance. The 32's and 38 Special cartridges are reloadable, which isn't a consideration in the woods but is a consideration at home. I think if I was in Char-Gar's position in a very remote area for weeks at a time; I would want more ammo for the same weight. The 22LR is the winner in that scenario. Reloading cartridges would not be a consideration at all. However, change the situation to one in which you return to home every day and the reloading option becomes relevant.

    The 32 calibers (32 S&W Long, 32 H&R Mag, 327 Federal) may be the best of both worlds. Small/light ammunition and reloadable cartridges. I wish there were a few more options in those calibers.

    Thanks to all for the discussion - Keep it going.

  2. #42
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    RMJ52 - If I had ever come across a model 64 with a pencil barrel - I likely would have stopped my search right there. At one point I actually considered having a model 64 barrel turned down. The other option that I seriously considered was finding a model 67 and modifying the rear sight to something snag-proof and only adjustable with a file.

    Something along the lines of your model 60-10 was also very much in the running.

  3. #43
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    If hunting with a center fire , my kit gun is usually rim fire . If not the kit is a center fire.
    I have to admit a lot of this comes from when I would try to justify to myself , why I " NEED " another gun

  4. #44
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    There's a 3" model 60 Ladysmith on a local gun board, but he wants $700 for it. Not today. GF

  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy glaciers's Avatar
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    Larry, I sent you a PM with a question about coatings just wondering if you received it.
    John

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by glaciers View Post
    Larry, I sent you a PM with a question about coatings just wondering if you received it.
    John
    My bad, got it during the week my internet was down (blown router) and missed it on the smart phone. Will PM you.

    Sent PM
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 08-05-2019 at 01:46 PM.
    Larry Gibson

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbcocker View Post
    I think we have an opportunity here. I would wager that the folks responding to this thread have at least a couple of centuries of time spent hunting, fishing camping and wood bumming. So why don't we set out our criteria for what a kit gun should be. I am not talking about caliber or type of gun but what criteria are we looking for? What size / weight requirements? does the weight include ammunition ie gun and 50 rounds of ammo weighing not more than _____. What purpose is the kit gun to serve? plinking ? Small game for camp? fun shooting? I don't think of a kit gun as protection from bad guys? If I knew I was going to a gun fight I would probably call in sick. Also I don't really need to protect myself from bears. The last critter that showed aggression towed me was a half grown raccoon who got his foot caught in the bird feeder. The ungrateful little sucker growled and charged me after I got his foot loose.. He was repelled with a swift kick from a tactical croc. The next most recent critter that got annoyed with me was a large sow at a hunting ranch. She was upset about my role in the demise of some of her kin. But in that case I was hunting with a .44 magnum.


    I read an article written after WWII where the author championed the many surplus .32 autos for the kit gun role. His accuracy standard was a group the size of a 50 cent piece at (IIRC) 50 feet. Soooo what say you all? What characteristics, accuracy, portability, power, etc. does our kit gun need? Do these things change west of the Mississippi?
    Living in Western MT where both species of bear are possible my "Kit guns" are only for short day trips in areas that bears are rare in. My 4" DW 357 gets some carry but it is the heaviest gun I like for these trips. On a motorcycle or 4 wheeler the 32 long or H&R just fit together well. Either will anchor a grouse, [legal in MT], where the 327 Fed would tear them up and 22 lr would have too many fly offs. The 38's are fun accurate and brass is found almost anywhere or used to be. I feel much more confidant with 150 + gr of anything in a social situation than with 90-100 gr. I am late to the 40 S&W but like the 175 gr at nearly 900 fps from a 3" gun that is the size of my palm.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    ..................The 38's are fun accurate and brass is found almost anywhere or used to be. I feel much more confidant with 150 + gr of anything in a social situation than with 90-100 gr. I am late to the 40 S&W but like the 175 gr at nearly 900 fps from a 3" gun that is the size of my palm.


    /\ I concur and I'll add a bit:
    The 38 Special is an extremely versatile round and while the brass isn't nearly as prevalent as it once was; it's hardly rare. With a revolver you tend to recover most of your spent casings and 38 Special cases will go through a lot of reloading cycles before the case mouth splits. I easily have over 1K 38 Special casings and I tend to accumulate more than I lose.
    I also concur that for social situations, with a revolver, I want something over 150 grains. So there's another plus for the that platform in my eyes.

    As to the 40 S&W .......there's no doubt that round packs a lot of power and some of the guns that are chambered for it are very handy. However, I never warmed up to the 40 S&W. I don't dislike it or disparage it, I just never really embraced it. I have a Glock 23 and that's about the smallest pistol in 40 S&W that I can shoot well. There's no dispute that it is light, compact and durable. It's just not my favorite cartridge.

  9. #49
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    +1 on the M63.

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  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Love the discussion.

    Started with .22s, went through a succession of S&W Model 34, 43, 51, 63 kit guns. Airweight Model 43 .22 LR was most accurate of the bunch, but not durable with high velocity ammo. Model 51 in .22 WMR was overly destructive of table game and with extra .22 LR cylinder was not accurate. Model 63 had multiple problems. Sold them all and got a Ruger Single Six Convertible which I still have, best of the rimfires.

    When the .32 H&R Mag. came out got a Single Six in that caliber, used it both with .32 H&R Mags and .32 S&W Longs, loved it. Passed it on as a gift to a nephew, got a Colt Police Positive in .32 Colt NP which I still have and love after some gunsmith tweaking.

    After 9/11 I rethought my EDC guns. Decided that I wanted at least a .38 Special because I wanted decent SD potential with small game accuracy. Have since accumulated a bunch of sturdy .38 Special former cop guns, because when the Dems get the Whitehouse again, the semi autos and high cap mags will likely go away. Politicially correct 6-shot revolvers will be in high demand and expensive, so I am hoarding them now. A dozen or so seems about right. I have Airweights in 2" and 4", steel frame M&Ps in 2" 4" and 6" and Colt Official Police in 3", 4" and 6". Yeah, they did make some 3 inchers, ever seen one? Then there are the S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty, Ruger Speed Six, Service Six, etc. Have them all in .38 Spl. and .357. Can't have too many. Oh yeah, and gotta have at least one .38/.357 lever gun to replace that AR which they will bring under NFA the first chance they get.
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  11. #51
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    I agree with what was said above for the .327 mag. It has proven to be a great all around gun and cartridge in the SP101. We had, for a time, a GP-100 and a Blackhawk in it to. But they were just too big. The versatility in the different cartridges is a major plus. That .327 is a pretty potent round. It's my choice now for a kit gun.
    Do the best you can, with what you've got, where you're at. -Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #52
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    I live in Ohio and don't worry about running into anything a 22lr won't handle. Besides hunting and fishing and some farming and logging I spend a lot of time in the woods when I'm not engaged in hunting. I have been looking for the perfect kit gun for years. My specs are accurracy and weight/ bulk. I have had about every decent 22lr on 32 frame. Some shot pretty good but even on sand bags I never had one that would shoot into a half dollar at 50'. Stock about the best I found in auto loader was the 422 S&W with adjustable sights. Besides being able to tune adj.sights generally provide better sight picture. This is a plus when you are shooting at things that are against woodland back grounds. I do believe a fixed sight pistol that shoots to the point of aim is the best you can get as long as you stay with the ammo it prints.

    I've had several 32 & 38 autos that shot very well off bags. The tiny sights are against them. If one would go to the trouble to have a good set of sights mounted you may have a good kit gun.

    I keep going back to a m34 S&W 4", m63 is just as good but I don't like SS. I tried a m34 snubby which shot well off bags but I couldn't shoot it well enough to suit myself. I have a dozen top shelf 22 pistols and revolvers but don't want a full size gun hanging on me while I'm not using it as the primary hunting gun. I just carry HVHPs for everything. The occasional copper head is no problem with HPs. If you are close enough to shoot a snake with shot you will have no problem hitting it with a bullet.

  13. #53
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    Every place is different and has it's own challenges. During my lifetime, I have had close encounters with coyotes, wild dogs, and a cougar, all right here in west central Illinois.
    I was fortunate that the cougar didn't want anything to do with me. Our meeting was just an accident for both of us with no harm done on either side(other than an accelerated heart rate).
    The dogs and coyotes, I didn't need to kill since they didn't like the sound of a gun firing, although I wasn't sure about that for a bit.
    When I walk in the woods, I carry something that will deal with these animals if necessary. For me, it is a 357 revolver.

  14. #54
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    This subject is dear to my heart. Early on, I became dissatisfied with the .22 Rimfire as a "proper" edible small game gun. Standard velocity solids lacked stopping power and the high speed hollow points damaged too much meat.

    My "ideal" choices became either a .32 caliber or .38 caliber in a compact revolver with my own cast bullets and reloads. After a variety of revolvers passed through my hands, here is what I have ended up with:

    S&W Model 631 (a SS with 4" barrel and adjustable sights on a "J" frame with my much loved Pachmayr grips in caliber .32 H&R Mag):



    When the S&W Model 60-4 hit the market, I nearly broke my arm getting my money out. The only reservation I had, was that it was "limited" to a 3" barrel:



    Right after I got my .32 H&R magnum revolvers (I also had picked up a 6" S&W 16-4) Federal stopped selling components to reloaders. That left me with no choice but to buy factory loads for brass. After that "slap in the face" from Federal, it got worse! The Federal factory brass was JUNK! I would get several side splits in the cases (like five or six) every time I shot a box of fifty). In self defense, I procured a supply of once fired S&W Long brass and my brass problems disappeared. Edible small game can be handled nicely at velocities easily obtained in the shorter case in a strong revolver. So, the .32 S&W Long and as well as the .32 H&R Mag are perfectly suited to edible small game in a light, weather resistant, platform (in this case a SS "J" frame revolver). I prefer to drive my home cast bullets to reasonable velocities. Magnum loads are not only not needed, since I prefer to hunt without ear protection, I load well under supersonic sound levels.

    A short time later, Starline started producing .32 H&R brass and that truly solved the brass problem. Starline makes EXCELLENT brass.

    After I picked up my 60-4 I had some .38 wadcutter's already loaded. It was bitterly cold weather, so I headed to our club's fifty foot indoor range. Several of the active pistol shooters were on hand. I sighted the revolver in off a makeshift rest and was pleasantly surprised at how well the 60-4 shot with my full charge wadcutters. Then, I put up a timed fire target and could not believe how well I was able to shoot this "snubby". It turned out that I was able to shoot the .38 Special 60-4 a bit better than my longer sight radiused 631.

    I have carried that 60-4 on many a serious bird hunting trip as a side gun to my Beretta over/under when hunting grouse in Eastern Ohio as well as the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. A full charge wadcutter will handily take sitting cottontail rabbits and snowshoe rabbits as well as a wounded or sitting grouse. Worn cross draw, it is out of the way of the shotgun, yet available instantly.

    I have not ignored my .32's, tho', and will cheerfully carry either in the field. The .38 Wadcutter would be more useful against coyotes and feral dogs. Further, I load .38 shot cartridges that are quite useful when back packing in snake country (my backpacking days included a LOT of time in the Kentucky and Tennessee mountains that were known to produce LARGE ratttlesnakes). I also did a LOT of canoeing in water moccasin country, too.

    FWIW
    Dale53
    Last edited by Dale53; 08-06-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyv View Post
    +1 on the M63.

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    I agree. I've had mine for 20 or 30 years. Over time the trigger pull is down to about 2 1/2 pounds.

  16. #56
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    Dale53 - That model 631 is a SWEET rig. I'm envious.

  17. #57
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    One thing has always puzzled me. How can a relatively small operation compared to the manufacturers, afford to put "Special Models" on the market and make money on them but manufacturers don't seem to want to market them themselves. It hardly makes sense to me. I am thinking of rather small markets that JUMP on Ruger Flattop .44 Specials, etc.

    I can only hope that some of the distributors that put Special models out, will get Smith to make another run of the 631's and 60-4's, etc. for those small game and woods walkers who weren't around when the originals hit the market.

    I do agree, though, that Smith "K" frame Model 14's and 15's can make dandy guns for that purpose. The surplus Model 15's "ex" law enforcement tools are a perfect example. That market of reasonably priced ex-law enforcement tools has been mentioned by several people in the early posts on this thread. My take on it is if a beat cop can carry such a tool all day and every day, so can I in the field. I do admit that my "perfect" choices pictured above are more in line with a "Kit Gun"...

    P&P, yeah those 631's DO work quite well in the role, that is for sure...

    FWIW
    Dale53
    Last edited by Dale53; 08-06-2019 at 07:14 PM.

  18. #58
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    I'm surprised it took Mr 53 this long to chime in! We've had many a chat about the whole concept of the Kit Gun, including what size is big enough but not too big, what caliber(s) would be appropriate. I'm still in love with that 4" Model 631 even though I have the twin to the Model 60-4. If I had to "grab and go" I would feel perfectly well equipped with the 38, and if I could only have one or the other it would probably be the 38, but there is still a soft spot in my heart (head??) for the 32 H&R. With a little creative loading it can do just about anything I would actually ask of the 38 Spl. The only disadvantage being that I can't walk into Wally World and find the 32s on the shelf like I can the 38s! Don't tell Dale53 I had anything good to say about the 32 H&R though, he knows my real love is the 327 Fed Mag (just not in a little J-frame!)

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  19. #59
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    I have a S&W 631 also and it was the perfect gun for potting 3 grouse in Colorado while I was elk hunting back in the 90's.
    1.2grs. of Bullseye with a .315 round ball makes little noise and is accurate to 40-50 feet.9
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  20. #60
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    I shoot more .38spl handloads from a police trade in M15-3 than any other platform but I bought a M12 4" sq butt a few years ago with a kit type role in mind. It is light and handy but I limit it to standard pressures. If S&W would build a +P rated scandium K frame, it would make a really nice kit-gun........
    JMHO-YMMV
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check