12 Gauge .735 Round Ball Results

[longbow]

Adam:

I have been using primarily smoothbore single shot cylinder bore (a classic Winchester Cooey) for the bore size 0.735" RB loads and my Browning BPS with smoothbore slug barrel with I/C choke for 0.662"& 0.690" RB's in shotcups. I also borrowed a Remington 870 with 1:38" rifled barrel for the 0.735" RB's.

Whilst getting the crap pounded out of me shooting a variety of slugs I did manage 2" groups at 50 yards with the 0.735" RB out of the rifled barrel. I should have taken more padding to dampen the tendon tearing blows ro my shoulder! I did too much slug shooting from the bench with little recoil protection!

I have not chronographed the loads yet but will. Unfortunately I will be giving back the rifled gun so will be back to smoothbore. My toy budget won't support another gun project now so if I don't make it myself I won't have it for a while.

Since you are getting pretty nice groups with the RB and rifled choke tube I may just give it a try. As I mentioned, I had thought the typical fast twist chokes would be too much for round ball and since the Paradox guns were in the 1:100" twist range which is good for 12 ga. RB I figured if it worked for them then it will work for me.

However, getting a 1:100" twist anything seems near impossible so I was getting set to make a small rifling bench and try my hand at a rifled choke tube of 1:70" to 1:100". 4140 should be a good material and is readily available.

A commercial choke tube is a lot less work though, not too expensive and it seems to be working well for you. I guess my only fear with this is the torquing down. A slower twist would not be so bad. It doesn't matter as long as it doesn't eventually strip the threads. I'd have to figure that even a hefty sabot slug would do the same but maybe the smaller diameter slug doesn't produce the same torque as full bore.

If I do get around to making a choke tube I would plan on a Cutts Compensator style using large diameter threads and a large contact shoulder.

Longbow

[Adam604]

Longbow,

I'm using a Pachmayr Decelerator Slip on pad, Man, what a improvement in comfort.
Before I was Black & Blue after every trip to the range. (I also have them on my .303 Enfield and 7.62x54R Mosin Nagant , man those steel butts would beat the heck out of me shooting milspec bullets)

I've also thought of building a Rifling cutting bench, but I was going to use a Turkey choke tube for my rifling job. I was thinking of using a bit of hacksaw blade for the cutter


Adam604

[missionary5155]

It has been many years since I have seen a croc on a tributary... I did my origonal RB "experiments" mainly to help some "river rats" (missionaries on the rivers) have an easy to make option for LARGE crocks that tend to eat anything to close to the waters edge. Once a croc gets over 20 feet their neck scales are thick enough that a 12 gauge slug does not penetrate... the impact may sort of stun them.. but I do not think a crocs "information processor" is fast enough to know. I do know a 25 footer took two Forster type slugs at less than 5 feet fired straight down hitting the same spot (about 2 minutes apart... time needed to circle again). That beast was still swimmimg normal and circling to come back again. A rapid retreat was deemed advisable by the village pastor piloting the boat.
Where I live is 8000+ in southern Peru. High Andes valley surrounded by 19-20,000+ foot mountains. No crocs.. no one ton critters.. just some agressive wild dog packs up in the hills who stay away from the 2 wheeling 12 bore armed bird hunter.
Once you have your RB load selected... always keep one in your pocket.. It will penetrate 2 feet of cactus base and the huge black monster behind it. Gotta find me an engine block I can punch at 10 feet...

[Echo]

"I appreciate the offer but for one I think the 49th parallel (the thing that separates Canada and the US) while only a line on a map represents a huge barrier in other respects."

I say Fifty-Four Forty or Fight! Well, I guess I'm a little late...

[wdsstraw]

Adam604, What is the dia. at the end of your barrel? Mine measures .730, so figure that a .735 ball would be to big to shoot in it. What do you or anyone else think? wdsstraw

[longbow]

I have shot 0.735" round ball through my 0.729" smoothbore with no problems.

I was hesitant at first so used a dowel and mallet to see just how much resistance there was swaging through the forcing cone ~ it only took a gentle tap. There is not much meat to swage around the middle of a round ball.

I took my loads from Precision Rifle's published load data for their full bore 610 gr. solid slug. A round ball even slightly oversize can't be as hard to engrave as a long slug. It is also 30 grs. lighter.

I got good results using hard card wad column in my smoothbore and also in a 0.727" groove rifled Remington 870 (same loads). If I were buying a mould for the rifled barrel I would likely choose bore size to maybe 0.003" over, not the 0.735" ball though it shot well with no pressure signs. I think 0.008" over groove diameter is a bit much but it was not at a max. load.

As long as you have cylinder bore of at least 0.729" you should have no problems just start with a light load of known pressure and work up. If you get sticky extraction you are overdoing it.

It worked for me, YMMV.

Longbow

[ETG]

I need to make one now, I planing on using a 2x4 with a 3/4 hole drilled into it then cut the end with the hole bisecting the hole and leaving a 3 or 4 inch piece to use as a clamp that I will drill to use bolts to clamp in on the choke tube. I hope I don't need to make two of them, one for the tube, one for the barrel.

Sounds like a lot of work. You might want to try a strap wrench (the cloth strap/metal handle not plastic ones). Cheap and you can get two just in case. I use them to remove the barrel on my 50 Ferret.

[Harmon_Greer]

Put some never seeze on the threads of the choke tubes. Anyone try longshot with the round ball?

[jimb16]

A twist rate of 1:72 is all that is required to stabilize a RB. That is the slowest standard twist for BP rifles. I've been loading .72 RBs in my shotguns for years with good results, and have taken several deer with them. I use Blue Dot for my loads and don't bother with the filler. I also use wads for 1 oz. loads since they fit the smaller ball and crimp nicely.

[Harmon_Greer]

has anyone tried longshot with a 735 ball?

Harmon

[turbo1889]

has anyone tried longshot with a 735 ball?

Harmon

Yes, I have. Longshot is not one of my favorite powders by any means due to the fact it becomes highly temperamental when approaching a max load an can pressure spike easily and does not have a nice linear burn rate like other more stable powders.

If you must use Longshot for 0.735" balls I suggest the following charge levels:



3” 7mm thick separate plastic base-wad straight walled hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S0 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 24gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 26gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max

3” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S0 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 26gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 28gr. Min – 32gr. Start – 36gr. Max

2-3/4” Federal Gold Medal One Piece Plastic Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 24gr. Min – 26gr. Start – 30gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 26gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max

2-3/4” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + very thin 12ga. overshot card
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 26gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 28gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max

2-3/4” Remington STS, Gun Club, or Economy One Piece Plastic Hulls,
Cold/Fowl Weather Load
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A and 25gr. of Longshot powder


All above listed loads are suggestions only and have been safe and sane in my guns with my loading technique - I cannot guarantee the same will be true for you. These loading suggestions have not been professionally pressure tested. If maximum loads are desired start at the suggested start load and work up slowly in 1/2 grain increments. I do not suggest ever going above the listed max loads due to the fact that Longshot powder has a very dangerous tendency to aggressively and unpredictably pressure spike when approaching maximum pressure. Thus even though the maximum listed loads may still seem like they could be worked up further doing so is strongly discouraged.

Yes, there is a fairly wide safety margin on these loading suggestions. It is there for a very good reason. A thinner safety margin is certainly usable with other more stable powders, but not with this one.

[Harmon_Greer]

what would be a better powder to use?
Blue Dot?
Steel?
2400, 296, 4227?
REL 17?

[Greg5278]

Harmon, depending on the velocity you want, you won't need such slow powders. Blue Dot is a bit slow, the .735" ball will be less than 600 Grains. I use IMR 4756 for loads up to 1450FPS, and IMR 7625 for lighter loads. IMR 4759 could be used for higher power loads up to 1600 FPS or so, but the wad column will have to be shortened. The IMR powders I mentioned will burn cleanly, and do so at low temperatures. Blue Dot can be dirty and leave a good bit of ash at lower chamber pressures.
Greg

[Harmon_Greer]

looking for a safe 1500 fps from a 2 3/4 inch hull.

[turbo1889]

what would be a better powder to use?
Blue Dot?
Steel?
2400, 296, 4227?
REL 17?

Greg has already given you some very good advice about using the IMR powders 4756 and 4759.

I would go with Blue Dot over Longshot any day even though it is dirty. I will usually pick Steel over Blue Dot as well. In fact, due to the fact that the IMR powders in question are usually more difficult for me to obtain locally on a regular basis, Steel powder is usually me go to powder for stuff like this.

Basically it’s an improvement on Blue Dot powder and you can usually substitute it straight across and then maybe even add a pinch or two more in most cases. The two down sides are that Steel absolutely requires a magnum primer unlike Blue Dot or the IMR powders previously mentioned and it doesn't work well for greatly reduced loads like Blue Dot does. For example, if a blue dot load recipe calls for 45 grains of powder you can usually take that all the way down to 30 grains or so to produce low recoil lighter loads and you will still get a decent powder burn without any bloopers. Doesn't work that way with Steel in the same example you would be lucky to get as low as 40 grains without running into burn stability issues.

Where I live there is always plenty of Steel powder on the shelf and plenty of Fed-209A primers so that is usually the combination I go with and scarf up a can of the two IMR powder numbers previously mentioned when ever I get a chance, which unfortunately isn't as often as I would like.

R-17 loads are for if you have a bull barrel gun and are looking for absolute flat out maximum velocity knock your socks off loads.

[Harmon_Greer]

i can get any commercially available powder here.. IMR, Winchester, Hodgdon, Vihta Vhouri , Rex, Ramshot...

I like blue dot, just seems there COULD be something better.

how much steel would you load and with what wad collum?

[turbo1889]

. . . how much steel would you load and with what wad collum?

For using Steel powder for 0.735" balls I suggest the following charge levels:



3” 7mm thick separate plastic base-wad straight walled hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 40gr. Min – 43gr. Start – 50gr. Max

3” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 42gr. Min – 45gr. Start – 50gr. Max

2-3/4” Federal Gold Medal One Piece Plastic Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 38gr. Min – 42gr. Start – 45gr. Max

2-3/4” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + very thin 12ga. overshot card
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 40gr. Min – 44gr. Start – 46gr. Max

2-3/4” Remington STS, Gun Club, or Economy One Piece Plastic Hulls,
Cold/Fowl Weather Load
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A and 40gr. of Steel powder


All above listed loads are suggestions only and have been safe and sane in my guns with my loading technique - I cannot guarantee the same will be true for you. These loading suggestions have not been professionally pressure tested. If maximum loads are desired start at the suggested start load and work up slowly in 1/2 grain increments. I do not suggest ever going above the listed max loads.

[Harmon_Greer]

i tried some today.
25.0 grains of IMR 7625
win AA hull
waa 12 wad with petals removed
inverted waa12 gas seal
.735 round ball cast from heat treated wheel weights and lubed with alox
roll crimp at 2.46" oal

ONE HOLE ACCURATE out of my NEF ultra slug gun @50 yds

im gonna push some with 40 grains blue dot,
waa12R wad with petals removed
inverted Waa12 gas seal
Win AA hull
and a roll crimp.

[Red River Rick]

What happens to the group at 100 yds? How was the case extraction?

I'm just curious.

RRR

[Harmon_Greer]

i gotta get to the range to test at 100+ yds, all i have is fifty yds at home.

the cases will slide out of the chamber without the use of the ejector.

I do this to keep from chasing the hulls around. just open slowly and dump them into your hand.

i plan on trying the loads with blue dot soon, ive already shot 50 of these balls and need to cast some more.