New Slugs To Test!

[longbow]

Well, I finally got around to modifying my mould and making up a few slugs.

I have a selection ~ starting form the left of the photo:

- 0.654" TC solid with hot melt glue skirt (originally from a mould designed by someone else to be used with steel shot wads)
- 0.685" TC solid with hot melt glue skirt ~ this one has a nose band at 0.685" and body at 0.662" for use in shotcup
- Lee Drive Key slug with glue skirt
- 0.685" TC hollow base with heavy skirt (0.100"+) ~ same mould as used for the solid with glue skirt

All for 12 ga. smoothbore and all fit into shotcups.

Weights vary but all are between 1 oz. and 500 grs.

I have tested the 0.654" slugs several years ago and they worked quite well when patched up to fit standard shotcups so I left the frustrating (to me anyway) world of hollow base slugs and headed down Brenneke lane. Well, the lane has had some potholes! Anyway, these had given some pretty good accuracy so I thought I would make some more and retest.

I also took what I thought were "best features" and made a slightly larger version with a larger nose band and body to fit directly into a standard shotcup with no patching. So far these have not done too well but I have improved my cast on skirts. These ones were drilled through for screws but normally I use a pin to leave a screw hole in the base.

The Lee Drive Key slug with glue skirt was my lazy man's way of making a Brenneke and so far they aren't doing badly turning in under 6" groups at 50 yards in the first round. These also have improved cast on skirts. That taper of the slug was a bit of a problem but I made a new skirt form to accommodate the taper and these came out nicely.

The TC slugs with glue skirts have screws run into the base to retain the glue skirt.

Last is the TC hollow base. While I had given up on hollow base slugs because I have had about every type and thickness skirt distort, I decided to give them another go because if I can get them to work they are quicker and easier to make.

The goal here is decent accuracy at 100 yards from smoothbore 12 ga.

To 50 yards, and maybe to 60/70, yards it is tough to do better than a round ball in my experience. However, somewhere out past 50 yards they start to veer off course randomly and by 100 yards groups tend to be large and/or there are fliers too far out of group.

So, I have been trying to produce a slug and load that will shoot into 6" or less at 100 yards... consistently. It has been a long haul and I have not succeeded with home made slugs and loads.

I have gotten some 6" +/- groups using BPI AQ slugs and factory Foster slugs of a couple of brands but not yet with home made slugs and loads.

I hope to get these tested this coming weekend. Range report to follow. I will be punchy after this round as I will have to shoot at least 10 of each from the bench to be sure of groups being good or not so good. 40 to 50 rounds of slug loads usually beats me up some. A heavier gun would be nice but shoulder padding will have to do.

Wish me luck and speedy recovery!

Longbow

[Ironduke]

I am really interested in the lee drive key slug/hot melt combo. I have struggled to get good accuracy with my loads, and I am convinced the slug yaws as it leaves the barrel. The sooner the yaw is corrected in flight, the less variation there will be in the flight path. Adding length, and light weight tail section should cause the slug to fly nose on earlier in the flight.

I could see a mold that would make divots in the tail of the HM skirt. Basically, the divots would result in kind of clunky, but stout fins. Say 4 divots equidistant around the tail of the skirt would be easy to machine into the mold, I'd think. You wouldn't want the resulting fins to be too thin or they would be damaged during acceleration probably. I'm kinda thinking out loud here. I could be totally off base.

I wonder if a small hollow in the base of the skirt would improve flight characteristics?

[longbow]

I've tried finned slugs form a mould I made and about the same time Diehard sent me a photo of Rocket Slugs that were factory slugs made with 4 fins (mine had 6 fins). Diehard subsequently sent me a few Rocket slugs. In both cases the fins crushed. The Rocket slug fins crushed to about nothing and mine distorted badly even though I made sure I had more fin cross sectional area than a typical hollow base slug. heat treating solved fin crushing but I still did not get good accuracy.

I went back to Foster style and Brenneke style slugs then settled on Brenneke because I had so much trouble with Foster skirts distorting ~ even thick ones.

The hot melt glue skirts work pretty well loaded into a shotcup. Of course one wouldn't want hot melt glue rubbing on the bore! I tumble them in talcum powder before loading.

The skirt forms are made out of CPVC pipe couplings bored to suit then a wipe of wheelbearing grease as mould release. Works pretty well.

I have not done much shooting with the Lees + skirts but like I said, first time out they did okay and the skirts were less than stellar. I did not try them further than 50 yards but will this time if 50 yard accuracy is decent.

Longbow

[cpileri]

You're giving me inspiration!
I might have to try the glue-skirt in my 20ga smoothebore that is giving me fits.
C-

[longbow]

If you go with a glue skirt it is best to make the slug a "wad slug" so it fits into a standard shotcup. As mentioned, when I do that I also use something like talcum powder or formerly BP lube on the slug to ensure the shotcup lets go. Any gas leakage can soften the glue.

Alternately I have made bore size slugs then used a one wrap and glued heavy paper tube on the slug to pour a bore size skirt. The paper tube prevents glue smearing down the barrel.

Both work but I find using standard wads with slugs size to fit quicker and easier.

Longbow

[cpileri]

How about these for attaching a skirt?

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB12-12ga-x-8mm-Wad-Base-250_bag/productinfo/072HB12/

They are a gas seal w a hole pre-drilled right in the center.
If they made some in 20ga...
C-

[longbow]

Those look pretty nice!

I gave up trying to get screwed on basewads consistent, just couldn't seem to get them lined up the same each time even in a jig but those plastic wads should work well if they are tight on a screw.

They would be for bore size slugs obviously.

I have a full bore mould as well so may just try that out. I only have to modify the HB pin to make a screw pedestal then giver 'er a go.

I was planning to get loaded up today and shoot tomorrow but life kinda got in the way again so I will see what happens tomorrow. I should get some loaded anyway but testing will likely be a week away. The range is booked for a shoot tomorrow as well but if I get time I will drive into the bush a shoot a few. I would rather do testing off the bench but I will do what I can do.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Longbow, those are some good lookin slugs.
Just an inquiry, but if you are going to put that much time into making good /accurate slugs, wouldn't it be beneficial to get a rifled barrel to do your testing, to get all the accuracy you can get??
Just asking.
Regards
Jack

[longbow]

littlejack:

It is a long story... loooooonnnng, loooonnnng story so I won't bore you with all the details. Suffice it to say that I have always wanted a Paradox gun which would shoot both shot and slug. Don't ask why because I can't really say, I just do. I like the versatility of smoothbores. The Paradox gun provides smoothbore and rifled gun performance. Well, I really can't afford a Paradox gun so... I decided to pursue "precision" slug shooting in smoothbores.

In my defense, I was influenced by Lyman's statement that 4" groups at 100 yards are possible with the Lyman Foster slug. Well, I can't prove they aren't possible but I think I can state that they certainly are not probable!

I started out about 25 years ago using a Lyman Foster slug mould and Lyman load data in my Browning BPS slug and buck barrel with high hopes of 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards. I failed!

Best I think I ever got from the Lyman Foster is about 8" at 50 yards.

Fist problem is that the Lyman Foster casts so far under bore size it is stoopid. They slug up anyway if cast of pure lead so why not make them the right size? SO paper patching got be some decent groups but still with too many fliers. And the quest had begun!

I read reports of wonderful accuracy from smoothbores and I have tried many of the techniques and often with some success but not consistent groups of less than 6" at 100 yards and even those have been rare for me.

So far, to 50, 60 and maybe 70 yards, round ball loads are hard to beat but groups start to open up not too far after 50 yards and 100 yards groups can be unpredictable. Sometimes quite good but not dependable.

So, I have waded through a variety of smoothbore slug designs ~ commercial slugs, slugs from custom moulds, slugs from commercial moulds, factory slugs and a variety of slugs from home made moulds.

Best accuracy I have had so far is from BPI AQ slugs and Federal factory Foster slugs with both giving 6" +/- groups at 100 yards.

I have not handloaded Brenneke slugs in many years and only loaded a few Gualandi slugs. Both are too expensive for me to shoot many of as are the BPI AQ slugs so I have been striving to come up with a home made slug and load that will do the job.

I believe these next tests will be my last if they do not do well at 100 yards. If that is the case, I will stick with round ball loads and reduce range to 50/60 yards.

I do plan on making a rifling bench to produce a deep grooved slow twist choke tube for round ball or "square" slug. I just haven't got to doing it largely because I have been holding out hope for the mythical 6" or less groups at 100 yards from my smoothbores.

Also, ultimately the goal was/is a poor man's double rifle using a side by 12 ga. with rifle sights. Preferable Paradox rifled (there's that versatility thing again). Not something readily available at an affordable price.

Sorry, long post and believe it or not nowhere near "all the details"! But you asked.

That's my story and I am sticking to it! We all need our challenges!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Longbow, I do understand. I would love to have one of the old Paradox guns. If you remember, I was testing the .69 caliber musket conical in my Hastings barreled 870. Well, final results were not good at all. I suppose, I could have kept on playing with different powders, wads etc. I did decide that the conical shape was the main culprit of the poor accuracy. Weather or not that is the correct cause of the lousy accuracy, I will never know. I do believe however that that is the reason for the "square" slugs in shotshell slug loads. Anyway, I will just stick to the ball loads that have given very good accuracy, and definitely the Lyman 525 Sabot Slug loads.
Your persistence sir is definitely to be admired sir. You can definitely state that you tried your best to get all the accuracy possible from a smooth bore.
My best regards
Jack

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow.

I'm still following your project with the greatest interest. If you're interested I have a spare mold (straight ribs) from the first design I made. Also, I have an extra mold for making epoxy wads. PM me an address and I'll ship both items for you at no charge. If you rather pursue your own design instead I fully understand that, but anyone as dedicated as you need all the support we can muster

I still need to finish the new helical mold/wad design before I throw in the towel and declare 50 yards for the max range of a smooth bore, but as always I'm short of time... right now I'm working on a couple of molds for jigheads for a fisher friend of mine. In return he supplies me with a supply of turned brass bullets for my various rifles so his molds takes first priority.

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

That is a very generous offer! However, at this point let's hold that thought whilst I play some more with my moulds. Not that I prefer mine to yours at all. Your mould is a work of art! We are a long ways apart though so shipping would be costly for sure. I have a few straight ribbed moulds I have made though not nearly as nice as yours. Mine are quite utilitarian but do produce a decent slug.

I have a few more things to try myself before I too declare that I have caved in to recoil from sending tons of lead downrange.

So far, to 50 yards I have not found anything better than a round ball! Maybe even 60/70 yards. However somewhere after 50 yards groups do start to open up... usually but even when they don't there are too many random fliers for me to be happy. So I decided to venture into hollow base slug territory many years ago. I tried wad slugs and full bore slugs, commercial moulds and home made moulds. After shooting hundreds of slugs I came to the conclusion that the Brenneke style just made more sense so strayed into Brenneke territory. I found that I just could not find readily available materials that would make a wad durable enough and consistent enough to be acceptable.

I am sure leather or hard felt would work but first of all finding what I need at an affordable price then punching/drilling and installing wads to slugs in a consistent fashion just wasn't easy. I made jigs and tried a variety of materials but all failed until I tried the hot melt glue as a cast on skirt/wad and that showed promise. In fact I got some pretty good results but it was difficult to get glue wads without air pockets and to get nice even flat base and sharp clean edges.

Well, with these new skirt forms I have that about beat now I think so these slugs stand about the best chance I think, if I get loads right.

I do have my old wide ribbed Brenneke mould I will make some full bore ribbed slugs as well but with glue skirts this time to see how they work. In full bore, the glue skirt has to be paper patched or cast in a paper or plastic tube so glue does not tough the bore. All my others are wad slugs so no problem there.

I wish I had more time to get out and shoot but time has been limited. I do have a variety of slugs yet to test or re-test. Soon I hope!

Anyway, I have attached a few photos of some of the slugs I have tried over the years. All the ribbed and finned slugs came from home made moulds. There are also a couple of Rapine full bore hollow base slugs and a Lyman sabot slug I recovered that someone else had shot (looks like it had been in the berm for years). you will see why some of my narrow ribbed Bernnekes failed right off ~ not enough bearing surface/crushed ribs.

I would love to test your mould and epoxy wads but let's save that for a bit then we'll talk about it. I would not expect you to bear the cost of shipping to Western Canada.

Thank you again for your generous offer.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

LB, you'll recall my discovery that the 7/8 oz Lee slugs were front heavy (lay them on their sides and they stand on their nose). I believe this is why I've achieved the kind of accuracy you're looking for out of smoothbore. There's nothing else special about my loads. Like an arrow followings its' weighted point the slug is self stabilizing ??? Weighting up the back would eliminate this distinction among other slugs and tend to even greater wobbling ???

[longbow]

Hogtamer:

Yup, nose heavy is the goal. It is all relative though. These relatively short solid slugs with skirts do not stand on their noses like the Lees but the balance point is well forward of the middle.

My TC glue skirt slugs balance just a hair behind the nose band which is about 1/3 the way way.

The old (no longer available) BPI AQ slugs were longer than Brennekes but they also stood on their noses when left to their own devices. Best smoothbore accuracy I have gotten is with AQ slugs. Unfortunately I have been unable to duplicate them at home. Close but no cigar!

Not disputing your success with the Lee 7/8 oz. slug at all either. I am planning to get myself a mould and try them out. For $25 what's to lose?

I like the wad type slugs like Lee because they are easy to load and no special stuff required.

So far though my Lee 1 oz. slug performs better with the skirt than without. Now the 7/8 oz. might even respond better. Who knows?

Now, having said that, aesthetics comes into this too and those finned slugs I made really looked cool. Didn't shoot worth a hoot but sure looked cool. I kept some just because they look cool.

What sort of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards with that Lee 7/8 oz. slug?

I should order one this weekend. In fact I will order one this weekend. Might as well give it a go. I prefer the TC shapes with flat nose and more solid design too but if the Lee will hit what I want, well, that is the first goal. Like I have said many times ~ round balls to 50 yards or so are hard to beat but stretch that to 100 yards and the game changes. I am still struggling to get decent accuracy at 100 yards.

on that note, next time out I will shoot some more 0.662" RB's in the remaining Uniwads with good solid fill in them. We'll see how that goes.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

I went to a real range just yesterday and got some funny looks when i walked up with my scoped 870! The guy i went with walked out to the 100 yd berm and I asked him to put me up a target while he was there. He thought was joking! I shot 10 times and the first 2 painted perfect windage, one 2" low and one 2" high per his spotting scope. The more I shot the higher they got and moved right. A hot barrel is my only explantion. Oh, and i shot these out of a sawed-off barrel, 24" so a cylinder bore - not the long barrel with screw in chokes I've been using. And for what it's worth I get total wad destruction! I chalk that up to the very old and brittle WAA 12r short red wads I used up. I do get the occasional flyer that I can't explain. The loads were Fed, 209, 34 gr LSHT, bpi x12x basewad, the Win wad mentioned, 2 - 20 ga 1/8 nitros, slug, 8 pt crimp. I've finally used up those old wads and plan on getting some of the Trap commander wads that AJ prefers. I may be able to eliminate the basewad as they are longer. Backed off to 34 from 36 grns Longshot for sake of the old shoulder and would love to show you a spent slug, just can't find anything to stop them that's soft enough to dig one out. Hope to get a deer with one and document results.

[artee]

Please excuse what may seem like "preachyness" as I quickly try to summarize some info.

I've cast and loaded the Lyman hollow base foster style (but not rifled) slugs since the mid 70's. I've also bought from other casters the same design slug in both as cast smooth side and from one guy who sold a rifled sided version (the "rifling" was cut into them after casting--Looked Factory pretty!). Most have gone down a 20in Ithica Model 37 with Deerslayer barrel from the mid 70's. This was still smoothbore but according to factory info basically "tight spec"/undersize from forcing cone to muzzle (NOT "Choked" as some incorrectly say). I liked Unique for practice (lower velocity and less powder used), and IMR 7625 for "full power". It was 10 years after I loaded these a lot before I got a chronograph, and most of my shooting was at 25 yards in a small gravel pit and not at the local range.


My personal cast Lyman fosters would be under 2 inch at 25 yards. No problem with 100% hits on "tall boy" beer cans littering the gravel pit.

With Factory foster style slugs (Winchester being best till about 2000 when Remington caught up and Federal about the same as Big Green). I could go about 2 inches at 50 yards. At 75 yards groups held to that angle (there being 3 in. or so) but then would start to open up with the square of the distance increase instead of in direct arithmetic proportion. In other words, you would expect 4 in. at 100 based on 50 and 75 but got about 6 inches (5 in. to 6 in.) for groups at that distance. IE a 133% increase in range from 75 yds gave not a 4 in. group, but a 3in x 169% increased group size (if you multiply 3in x 1.69 you get about 5.1 in or right in the range of my 100 yard groups).
This is EXACTLY what you should expect for objects acted on by a SIDE FORCE. F = ma and "a" or acceleration involves a SQUARED TERM.

I would look to a good factory load as setting the standard and not likely to be exceeded. But at any rate, an accuracy standard. If you can shoot only a 6 inch or 9 inch group at 100 yards with your best factory slugs, I wouldn't expect a significant difference with your best handloads.

OK Personal experience and preaching over.

You have with roundballs in shotguns, and none spin stabilized "slugs" from shotguns, basically the same issues faced by SMOOTHBORE MUZZLELOADERS (ie "Muskets") so, here are some very good threads from another board some going back a decade dealing with MUSKET accuracy. (Most based on what guys, some competitors, actually shoot)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...+bore+accuracy

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...d+time+weapons

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...all+trajectory

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...all+trajectory

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...+real+range%3F

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...+bore+accuracy

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-675907.html

I realize some of these seem to be for rifles/rifled bores, but you know how shooters tend to wander around a subject and none of the threads is very long.

Happy Reading.

[artee]

Longbow, the reason behind my post is to confirm your 50/100 yard accuracy theory and if you read the posts at the URLs above, you'll see that basically is what the smoothbore muzzleloaders expect also. Accruracy is good till about 65/70/75 yard area, then declines more rapidly than range increases would suggest.

[longbow]

artee:

I will go through those links when I get some time. I am sure there will be some good stuff there.

I understand the seemingly sudden increase in group size after a certain distance (seems like 60 to 70 yards in my experience).

I have read of smoothbore shooters getting 3" groups at 75 yards and even competing with rifles at 100 yards. I do not doubt it. I have been saying all along that if we can launch a round ball dead center out of the bore and with no spin we should be able to get accuracy similar to what the musket shooters get with patched round ball. I may there or close anyway as my round ball loads are quite accurate to at least 50 yards (3" to 4" groups) but at 100 they do tend to spread out and/or have some random fliers.

I am sure some slugs will do better than round balls at 100 yards and in fact, I have shot factory slugs that grouped under 6" at 100 yards. What I have not been able to achieve is that kind of accuracy... consistently, from handloads using home made slugs.

My first "slug" mould was a 0.690" round ball mould. I did not do too well with it. I did make up an AQ clone using the 0.690" RB's and if I got the skirt nice and consistent they actually worked pretty well. Not as good as commercial AQ's but better than most hollow base slugs I have tried.

After reading in one of my Lyman handbooks that the Lyman Foster could be depended on to provide 4" groups at 100 yards with good loads (smoothbore), I went out and bought a Lyman Foster slug mould. What a disappointment it was! It casts at 0.705" so grossly undersize for any of my "standard" bore shotguns which all run around 0.729"/0.730". Accuracy was dismal to non-existent using Lyman load recipes and pure lead slug as recommended.

I recovered many of these slugs from deep snow so could check slug condition and basically every one had slugs up different ~ skirts crushed, noses cocked, uneven body length, etc.

I tried paper patching them to get them to bore size and that did help but still too many fliers.

I gave up one them.

The best 50 yard accuracy I got was about 6" and more typically 8" to 12".

I get far better accuracy from round ball loads.

So, I decided to try a variety of hollow base slugs, of commercial and home built designs. Almost all have been better than the Lyman in my guns using my loads and Lyman recipes. Some have been pretty good but skirt failure/distortion was an on going theme.

So far from limited shooting with Lee Drive Key slugs they are out performing the Lyman by a large margin. More testing to be done though.

Subsequently I decided that the Brenneke style makes more sense and I do not like the way the typical Fosters flatten out into big lead washers anyway so a solid style with attached wad was the direction I went. I have had some good successes but not enough better than round ball at 50 yards to be worth the effort and not into the mythical (for me anyway) 4" group at 100 yards.

Certainly not disputing your success or that of other people. I have failed using the Lyman slug and do not like it anyway so did not pursue it. The nose and skirt are too thin for my liking (lead washer syndrome), the mould is horrible to cast with and I can't get it to shoot.

Another point that you bring up as well is that I understand those Ithacas did tend to have very tight bores and that they had (have) a reputation for good performance. Again, no argument from me there. Unfortunately my Browning BPS has a bore running 0.729"resulting in a 0.024" clearance with the Lyman slug. Way too much slop.

I recently did some more testing with that Lyman slug after being advised on how to build a wad column that would provide consistent "slug up". Again, my results were poor. Not saying the advice was wrong, just saying I couldn't get it to work. I didn't give it any retries though as I really do not like the Lyman Foster slug design anyway.

My home made slug moulds are much easier to use and cast a better slug that shoots better. All in all though, I like round balls. They just have a moderate range limitation from smoothbores.

I have a few more designs to test before I throw in the towel though. We will see how they do.

Next in line if this doesn't work out is a slow twist deep rifled choke tube. I plan on setting up to make a rifling bench if I can make time. My 0.735" round balls did very well though a rifled Remington 870 and I believe they would work using a rifled choke tube. Some people have reported very good accuracy using standard factory choke tubes but not only don't I have a gun tapped for choke tubes, I think the rifling is too shallow and twist too fast for full bore slugs. My opinion. I plan to make something about 1:70" or slower to suit full bore round ball or "square" slug.

I know it would be easier to just go out and buy an H&R slug gun. They are inexpensive and accurate but my ultimate goal was an accurate side by slug gun and I cannot afford a big bore double rifle so shotgun slugs it is. I am stubborn!

Sorry, long post. Got to thinking out loud as I went.

Thanks for the links, I will run through those later or tomorrow. Also, thanks for the info and feedback. I am always open to suggestion and trying to learn new things.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, I still haven't managed to get to the range but I did manage to modify another mould to make another slug to test. This one was originally the finned slug mould converted to hollow base. The first go I made the skirt a bit thinner than I should have. This time the skirt between ribs is 0.075" to 0.080" then the ribs are much thicker.

The balance point is just behind the start of the ribs so well forward of center. The hollow base plug has 4 degree taper and near flat top so keeps weight well forward.

Weight is between 515 and 520 grs. so I will use Lyman 525 gr. sabot slug load data.

I weighed all my new slugs too:

- Lee Drive Key slugs weigh 445 grs.
- Lee with glue skirt weighs 480 grs.
- new TC hollow base weigh 475 grs.
- new TC hollow base with glue skirt weigh 510 grs.
- TC solid Brenneke style with glue skirt weigh 505 grs.
- TC solid old style (without nose band) weigh 465 grs.

All cast from range scrap.

So now I have 7 new slug designs to test! I can feel the recoil already! I will have to shoot 10 of each to be sure I have a reasonable idea of groups.

Not sure I will make it through all in one day but I will try. Now to get some range time.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Brother LongBow, your slugs just look very mouth watering, can I have some to go!

I wish you all the very best, Longbow!
Please be sure to put a .170" darker nitro card or .250" nitro card from Circle Fly right below the slug and a great OP wad like Powder cup with a .125-28 nitro card to fill the top cavity.

Passing the torch of knowledge is something done out of genetic responsibility!

Hoping it helps.
Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl[/url]
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/[/url] ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr[/url] ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961[/url]
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246[/url]
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK