12 Gauge .735 Round Ball Results

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 here again,

I had some time over the weekend to load up some .735 round ball loads.

Well, after reading some more and reading your reply's I decided to load up some rounds and give them a go.

Loads that I am trying this time:

Load #1:
Federal target hull
Federal 209A Primers
23 Grains Unique
Federal 12S3 wads (pink)
20 gauge card wad
7/8 oz. Lee Key Drive Slug
Crimp with a 8 segment fold

Load #2
Winchester hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
22.9 grains of UNIQUE (2.5cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox
8 segment Star crimp

Load #3
Active 12 gauge hull
Federal 209A primer
32.4 grains of BLUEDOT (2.8cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox
8 segment Star crimp

I made a wad trim tool. I trimmed a deprimed used 12 gauge hull to height so that when I pushed in a Federal wad 12S3 and held it in place with a wood dowel plug I could use a box cutter to trim to the right length. They come out trimmed very neatly and repeatable. It works pretty good and I can trim several of them per minute.

I used a Lee Load All press for all this. ( 2ND time use, lots quicker than my Lee Loader)

After I got to the range and set up to shoot from a bench rest I checked all of my loads. Some of the loads were starting to open up the crimp. I think the Federal wad (12S3) may be a bit too long with a .735 ball

I shot from a bench rest with a sandbag firm under the Mossberg butt and the front rest adjusted to place the scope cross hairs on target. Pulled the butt firmly into my shoulder and pulled down and back on the pump slide. Sunny and no wind.

The scope is set for shooting 7/8 oz LEE slugs at 50 yards.

I test fired load #2 and #3 with a screw in cylinder choke tube first

Recoil for load #2 was heaver than load #1 , no ejection problems, no indications of overpressure on the hull or primer pocket.

Recoil for load #3 was heaver than load #1 & 2 but not as much as factory slugs , no ejection problems, no indications of overpressure on the hull or primer pocket.

I had bought 2 chokes for my shotgun, a screw in cylinder choke and a screw in rifled choke tube (both Browning)

I tested the Lee 7/8 oz slug through three choke tubes. Cylinder choke, Improved Cylinder and a screw in rifled choke tube

I tested Load #2 round ball through two choke tubes. Cylinder choke, screw in rifled choke tube

I tested Load #3 round ball through the screw in rifled choke tube (I'll need to use a strap wrench to remove the rifled choke it was really torqued down by the round balls) I was not able to remove the rifled choke tube at the range to test the Cylinder choke tube.

RESULTS: 3-5 SHOTS EACH CHOKE


LEE 7/8 OZ SLUG 50 YARDS

Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, spread about 7 inches

Improved Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, 1 1/2 inches left, 2 inches high, Spread 2 1/2 inches

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, 5 inches left, 2 inches high, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, 5 inches left , 5 inches low, spread 8 inches (9 shots)

.735 Round Ball Load #2

Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, 2 inches right, 4 inches low, Spread 3 1/2 inches (5 shots)

Improved Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right, 4 inches low, Spread 3 1/2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right , 4 inches low, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, .5 inches right , 16 inches low, Spread 3 inches (5 shots)

.735 Round Ball Load #3 (stuck choke tube rifle choke only)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right , 4 inches low, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, 4 inches right , 12 inches low, spread 1.5 inches (5 shots)

The rifled choke really improved the groups at both 50 and 100 yards with the round ball. The Lee slug did not shoot as well as the naked .735 round ball!

I will do some more load development and see what happens.

Adam604

[Heavy lead]

Very interested in this. I have a Reminton 11-87 with a fully rifled barrel and am currently shooting a Lyman 525 grain pellet in a WAA114 wad in a Federal Gold Medal target hull with Fed 209a primer and 39 grains of Longshot, I'm chronographing just about 1600 fps, 50 yard accuracy is dead on and a 1 to 2 inch group, 100 yards drops only 3 inches, but in opens to a 5 inch group. Those roundball loads look real promising. Where did you get the data? And how much does that roundball weigh? I'm real interested in this, please let us know. Oh I weigh my charged and load them on a Lee LoadAll too. I only use my Mecs for bird shot.

[Adam604]

Hi,

.735 Lyman Round ball Weight cast with wheel weights lead water dropped
~ 18 BHN

Measured a lot of them with calipers .732 to .7345

Weight 575-578 grains (1 5/16 oz)

Load data:

Tricky.. from my reading you can replace shot with a equal or less weight of single round ball or slug and pressure will be less than the pressure generated by the load of shot.

I'm backing off of max values of powder by several grains for my starting loads.

also from my reading.. wad contribution to pressure changes is less than generally thought. Modern plastic wads all have near the same performance of gas sealing.. the major change from old style wads.

Primers.. My future loads will be using different primers. Remington 209A primers generate lower pressure than other common shotgun primers with little loss of velocity. Possibly I may try using Winchester 209ML primers for even lower pressure loads.


Adam604

[longbow]

Adam:

Just a comment on the wads. Again, I can't say positively since I don't have pressure testing equipment but from my book references, wads are a little trickier that just the sealing issue.

Most wads have a cushion leg and some are very soft while others are stiff. The initial give of the cushion reduces breech pressure especially with faster powders. I don't have all the info at hand but can look it up. With some recipes pressures can rise substantially with a change from soft to stiff wad.

What I have noticed is that with larger payloads and slower powders this seem less of an issue. I think partly because with large payloads of shot and large charges of slow powder there is little room for a cushion leg.

I wish I had the equipment to run tests but...

Personally I am inclined to lean towards the slower powders for slugs and will err on the side of caution.

I don't think you can go too far wrong using shot data for an equal weight slug as long as it isn't grossly oversized. However, it seems that many slug loads are pushing the pressure boundaries so I check several sources to get a feel for what any component changes might do to pressures. Often a single source may only list one recipe for a hull where another source may use a different primer or wad in the same hull.

If in doubt don't do it.

Longbow

[longbow]

Heavy Lead:

The 0.735" RB loads I am using were based on the Precision Rifle "Piledriver" load data. It was a full bore solid lead slug of 610 grs. The RB weighs approx. 580 grs.

They listed several charges of Blue Dot up to 44 grs. @ 12,000 PSI.

So far I have not exceeded 38 grs. of Blue Dot with the 0.735" RB. I have not chronographed it yet so don't know velocity but recoil was stout! It gave approx. 2" groups at 50 yards from a fully rifled bore @ 1:38" twist. I think the gun would do better but I was being battered senseless by recoil so not holding as well as I might.

I have been told that IMR 4756 is a better choice for powder but so far have been unable to get any where I am.

Longbow

[bobk]

Longbow,
Is it legal for me to mail you a pound or two of 4756? It's available here readily, and I would like to contribute to your continued experimentation.

Bob K

[Scrounger]

Try 2400 or WW296 or Lil Gun

[longbow]

bobk:

I appreciate the offer but for one I think the 49th parallel (the thing that separates Canada and the US) while only a line on a map represents a huge barrier in other respects.

I can probably order some 4756 in Canada if I pay the hazmat fee. I know it is available in larger cities like Calgary or Vancouver. I usually go to Clark's Allsports in Colville Washington to pick up reloading supplies because it is closer than anything here. They will order in but I have to make pre-arrangements which I just haven't got to yet.

I live in a small town not remote but not any larger cities closer than 3 hours and they aren't big so selection is limited.

All in all I have been finding that Blue Dot works pretty well. It is just that I have been told by a fellow with lots more experience than I have that 4756 is a better powder for slugs.

Scrounger:

I may have seen some load recipes using 2400 but I am pretty sure I have never seen slug loads using WW296 or Lil Gun. I am not one to experiment too far from proven recipes if I don't have a reliable source for loads. Rifles and handguns generally let you know when you are pushing them. Shotguns not so much.

If you have load data for shot or slug I would be interested.

Longbow

[yondering]

I may have seen some load recipes using 2400 but I am pretty sure I have never seen slug loads using WW296 or Lil Gun. I am not one to experiment too far from proven recipes if I don't have a reliable source for loads. Rifles and handguns generally let you know when you are pushing them. Shotguns not so much.

If you have load data for shot or slug I would be interested.

Longbow

I'd also be interested in seeing some load data for 4756 in slug loads. I've found it on the Hodgdon website for normal trap and game loads, but no heavy slug loads that could be used to drive a round ball fast like Blue Dot.

[Mayor]

Longbow

I am very interested in your research/experimentation!
I have lamented greatly on the use of the .735 RB. My thoughts were that it would be too large for the 12 gauge bore? I have started and stopped numerous times in loading it in magtech brass cases with Black Powder as it is a good fit in the brass case and with proper wad height a slight roll crimp holds it in the brass case (looks awesome also). I have an old Remington side cocker single barrel with a Lyman 17A front sight and a peep tang mounted in the rear. Should make a decent 100 yard Squirrel gun! I don't remember what the bore slugged to but it seemed like the .735 would be too tight. You have renewed my interest in this project again. Obvoiusly the .72? nominal bore size and the .735 seem to do OK.......especially since you are shooting it through a choke. If anyone has any thoughts and can help reassure me I would be glad to share my data also (once I get the cajones to shoot it).

Thanks
Mayor

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I origonally went with the .685 RB to have the option of just dumping the shot out of a standard Winchester 12 gauge load. This eliminated the need to have any reloading materials and Winchester is readily available here (Peru). The need was/is for the elimination of vicious LARGE crocks out on the Amazon tributaries. Standard slugs just bounce off the thick neck armor. I have for my own personal use expanded into other items of interest.
Yea... that RB looks impressive sitting atop a BIG brass cartridge.

If you decide to branch off into heavy charges of black powder(120+) USE the brass cartriges as black (2F) destroys plastics cases. But if you are looking to "shoot once and not reload it" then plastic is fine. 2F was the ORIGONAL propellant for RB. It still works ! The smoke cloud of 135 grains 2F on a still day will give new meaning to "shoot and move"..

Using a .685 RB + wads does give some versitility... but you can accomplish the same using a .735 ball .... just trim the wad below full bore... Wads can cause SERIOUS PRESSURE spikes. Be carefull as different wads are not all the same and modifying wads as I do REQUIRES backing off loads and advancing slowly. I have experimented with all sorts of wads and each has potential in different applications and especially availability of materials.

Longbow has a good handle on FULL BORE RB. I have learned much reading here and recommend you research the other threads here in the Shotgun Casting area.

[Dixie Slugs]

When I was working oversea, I saw some interesting Russian shotshells with hard round balls.
The load had two hard nitro looking wads that were center punched with the ball in betweeen the wads. It appeared that the wads help keep the ball aligned in the center of the bore??????
I do think that there is a great deal of potential in a roundball load.....just like it was when the Brits used then in Afica/India.
Now....there is some mis understandin about ball that are oversize for the bore. Since the edge of the ball is on a radius, they will swage down.....even a hard ball. a good rulle of the thunb is to have a ball no larger that .004" (or .002" per side) than the tightest point in the barrel. The ideal would be a cylinder barrel.
I also think the Russian idea of helping ceneter to ball on the bore is interesting indeed.
Regards, James

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 again,

Just a quick note and a caution....

I fired off the last 3 rounds of the .735 round ball loaded with Unique, I had a round that would not eject! I had to demount the barrel to tap the empty hull out. No ejector claw signs on the base, just would not pull it out.

The empty hull re- chambered with difficulty but ejected OK.

So, don't use my load data for loading round ball with Unique.

Adam604

[missionary5155]

Adan604 How much Unique was that ? Something sure does not sound right. What are you using to charge the cases.. I visually inspect all my hulls when using unique and regularly fire 30-32 grains unique with RB 6.85 and have never had this happen.

[longbow]

Mayor:

I have not shot the 0.735" RB's through any form of choke ~ cylinder bore only.

I was quite hesitant about shooting them to begin with but I used a piece of round bar and mallet to try one in the bore to see how much force it took to swage it. It really didn't take much so I felt it was safe to shoot. It swaged very easily and as James says being a round ball there is not much there to swage at 0.005" to 0.006" over bore size.

Also, I compared loads with full bore heavier cylindrical slugs and felt they would take as much or more pressure to swage the full bore slugs due to larger contact surface.

I also used a slow powder and less than listed as max. for a full bore slug about 40 grs. heavier.

Had I hoticed any significant effort to swage the ball into the forcing cone I would not have continued. Adam said very much the same in that he also ran one through the barrel and noticed how little force it took.

Having said all that I would have preferred a ball of sat 0.730" to 0.732", there just weren't any moulds available. Even if there were I would not shoot these through a choke of any sort.

My feeling is that the ball or ball/shotcup combo should not be more than 0.003" max. over the choke constriction. I have a 0.715" mould I wanted to use in my BPS slug barrel with I/C choke but unfortunately my I/C choke is 0.711" and the ball casts 0.716" ~ too big for my liking. BPI says it should be okay but swaging 0.005" through a choke doesn't sound good to me. I will be honing a few thou out of the choke.

I make the exception with the 0.735" ball as it is being swaged as pressure builds and in the thickest part of the barrel. Again, my feeling is that a full bore slug has more contact area and so will take as much or more pressure to swage into rifling in a rifled bore. My opinion and not based on pressure tests so far.

Missionary has a good write up on his use of 0.685" RB in the shotcup somewhere in this forum if you search. He has recommended (correct me if I am wrong missionary) that the ball shotcup combo should not be over 0.003" larger than the tightest constriction in the barrel. Good advice especially with regards to chokes.

I have done much the same with 0.690 RB in a shotcup. They were a little tighter than the 0.003" recommended by missionary and I found I got a lot of sheared petals when shot through my I/C choke. They gave better performance out of cylinder bore.

By the way, the 0.735" RB's I have shot were ACWW casting to 0.736" and shot through a cylinder bore at 0.729" and rifled bore at 0.727" groove. No problems in either, no sticky extraction or other pressure signs. I would not go any larger though!

I have only loaded these over hard card wads with a plastic gas seal and using Blue Dot so far.

As for 4756, I do have some loading data passed to me by someone else. I trust his load development and he has had some of his loads pressure tested. However, I have not loaded any 4756 yet so cannot speak from personal experience as to safety or performance.

If I were to buy another mould right now it would be the double cavity 0.678" RCBS. Small enough to fit through any full choke except extra full turkey choke so safe that way and just the right size to fit most shotcups. However, I have four large ball moulds now so am not buying any more just yet.

Longbow

[Adam604]

missionary5155,

Here is the load data for the Load in question

Load info for Unique Round Ball

Load #2
Winchester hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
22.9 grains of UNIQUE (2.5cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.735 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox weight 575-578 grains measured size .732 to .7345
8 segment Star crimp

This is the load that I had problems with.

I inspected the remainder of the once fired hulls that I used to supply hulls for this load and found several that had "Loose Bases", that is that I could wiggle the brass base on the plastic hull, a couple would even turn! I did not know to inspect for this problem and may have just used hulls that should not have been used.

In the future I will check the brass for "fit" or "tightness"

This load did have a bit less recoil than the Blue Dot loads and I did not expect to see any problems with this amount of Unique (23 grains). I also expected to be able to load Unique safely to as high as 30 Grains.

Adam604

[longbow]

Adam:

Re-reading this thread I must have skipped a groove or two. Did we have another thread going too?

Anyway, I picked up part of this but hadn't noticed your accuracy results. Pretty good for rifled choke tube ~ pretty good by any standard actually.

My "goal" has been to create a modern Paradox gun by using a rifled choke tube but I felt that the typical 1:38" or faster twist would be too much for a round ball to pick up when whisling through at top velocity. I was thinking that something more like 1:70" to 1:100" would be more suitable and unlikely to cause the ball to strip in the rifling. You seem to have proved that unnecessary.

Maybe I don't need a custom slow twist choke tube! If I could get consistent accuracy of 4" or better at 100 yards I'd be happy.

Do you know what twist the rifling is?

Did you chronograph the loads (curious about velocity)?

Thanks,
Longbow

[Adam604]

sheared petals,

I've picked up most of my fired wads when shooting the LEE 7/8 oz slug that I shoot with the Federal 12S3 wad. I have noticed quite a few have sheared wad petals.

I am going to clean up the range next time of all pink wads (mostly mine I think) and pick up each one to see what is going on with them.

The last time I shot them I used 3 chokes: Cylinder, Improved Cylinder, and Rifled.

I think I saw something new with the Cylinder Choke, some of the petals were bent backwards.. My cylinder choke measures .735" and the barrel is .7295"... which is the same size as my Improved Cylinder choke..

I am thinking that my LEE slug does not have a firm enough base or base support and is wobbling down the barrel causing the sheared petals. I am going to try using a buffer fill under the slug and a firmer underwad to support the slug in the plastic wad cup on my next loads of the Lee Slug

Adam604

[Adam604]

Longbow,

The rifled choke tube I am using is a Browning Rifled Choke tube. It fits my Mossberg and other shotguns. It extends from the barrel about 4 inches and has 4 ports about 1/2 inch from the end. I bought it for about $35 US

One caution about them tho, as Dixie Slug said in on of his messages, "when the slug hits the rifled choke at 1300 fps it really torques it down tight" so make yourself a choke removal wrench ahead of time.

I need to make one now, I planing on using a 2x4 with a 3/4 hole drilled into it then cut the end with the hole bisecting the hole and leaving a 3 or 4 inch piece to use as a clamp that I will drill to use bolts to clamp in on the choke tube. I hope I don't need to make two of them, one for the tube, one for the barrel.

I am surprised by my results at 50 and 100 yards with round ball and the Rifled choke tube. I'm doing as well with my shotgun as I am with my .303 Enfield! And I can see the hole with out using a spotting scope. My last outing I got a 1 1/2 in group at 100 yards, 2 inches at 50 yards!

I am trying a few things on my Mossy tho, I'm using a bit of "Beagleing" tape (aluminum stove flashing tape) to tighten up the fit of the barrel into the receiver and have loosed up the magazine screw to reduce barrel stress.

The Bench rest method I am using is new for me to. I'm using more sandbags to "hold position" of my shotgun so it moves less when I shoot. I am going to make a bit of a change next time and not use my pump as the front rest position, I'll use the magazine tube instead, it doesn't move as much.

I don't own a crono, so I don't know how fast the loads are.

Adam604

[Heavy lead]

OK I ordered the roundball mould, after deer season I'll work up some loads. I really like Longshot in my heavy shot loads, I will start there. Good job Adam, this has got me cranked up, darn thing kicks harder than my Rigby, kind of addicting.
Missionary, man you're like a McGiver there in Peru. That big old brass cased roundball load looks imposing, and you pop crocks with them huh? Like to bring that 11-87 down.