Wrapping the bullet

[Buckshot]

CM, it seems to me that using 3 wraps the bullet isn't patched evenly round, (uneven number of wraps is going to leave part of the bullet undersized) and also getting a clean release of the paper and the bullet gets a bit more problematic.

............Odd or even, the number or wraps all the way around the boolit to the beginning point will give you a round cylindrical boolit, that will not leave part of the boolit undersized. How could it? You have 3 wraps all the way around. Leaving off the shrinkage issue when dry, 3 wraps of .002" paper will give you 0.012" additional thickness to the lead slug.

I have no personal experience patching more then 2 wraps. It is possible that as th epaper thickness increases (either by it's own thickness) or the number of wraps, there may be some cushioning or compressing of the paper then would be desireable. Pure conjecture on my part, but I could see that patching up a .400" slug to .450" or .458" could have issues.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

Ok, I'll leave it at that point. In the rest of your reply, you started off into that zone you like to step into where you allude to knowledge unavailable to the rest of us..The best way to gain knowledge is read, ask questions, then try it yourself. Those that have usually come back to ask a few more questions. I've done it and written about it on this and previous interations of this forum. If you don't ask questions, I can only assume you haven't tried it or got it right the first time (possible, but not probable). I know what my rifles like and will do as far as useing my techniques, what yours will do with your techniques you'll have to find out for yourself. If I can make it shoot, you should be able to also. To what degree depends on you though. which you are not inclined to expound upon.

Thank you for what you were able to share...I'm not a English major here, all the people I teach in my vocation don't pick up very technical methodology very fast, so I have a try it after you get it explained to you, then ask questions type of teaching system. Works well in my business, but not probably so well here. My apologies...............
CM

[docone31]

I have done three wraps. I found, as compared to two wraps that is a little thin, it makes a big difference.
Doing three wraps to find the thickness needed really worked for me. I use a cigarette roller, so alignment is not an issue. I can lay the patch down in the roller, using the angle of the roller itself as a guide, and wrap that puppy right on.
I am pretty certain, there are machineists within us, that can make a roller to wrap the larger castings. All it is is a piece of plastic, bent on both ends at 90* with two rollers and a vinyl bib.
Last night, I did 50 wraps in less than an hour after cutting them on the template I made. I had no rejects.
I did find, especially when I use the traceing paper, three wraps makes a very stable wrap. I have not done it with the heavier paper I am using with this last batch.
Once dry, it seems like the patch is quite hard. When it sizes, it sizes real consistantly. I cannot see the edge of the wrap when it is sized down. I size from .317-318, the variances I have gotten from wrapping the paper, to .314. Dead on.
It makes a dense solid jacket.
I can work the leading edge loose with my fingernail, but it takes a little effort. It does not rub out with just a flick.
So, yes, I have done three wraps and they shot real well at jacketed loads I got 3" at 100yds untill the barrel heated up and became spaghetti. Then the group got wild.

[Don McDowell]

Buckshot about the best I can tell you is that, working with that original sharps design bullet (have posted pics here in a couple of different threads) that comes out of the mold at .435 and trying to get the guilt edged accruacy for bpcr match shooting has been a very interesting experiment , and have burned several pounds of powder. I have got it down to good hunting accuracy ie 6 inch groups at 300 yds, but have as yet gotten anything tighter.
Judging from the targets at 200 yds, uneven number of wraps(3) causes a good bit of groupl enlargement, going to 4 wraps helps the accuracy thing a little bit, but the recovered bullets from the 3 and 4 wraps, generally had the bases stuffed full of the paper, and I'm thinking that was a good sized part of the problem, along with too much paper to cleanly release from the bullet and causing problems right from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle.
So from reading the trials and tribulations, my own shooting headaches, and visitiing of folks like Kenny Wasserberger, Rick Mulhern, and Bill Bagwell, among others, 2 wraps is about all you can expect to give good accuracy.
Recovered bullets also can give a fella plenty to scratch your head about, and when you recover these .435 bullets and notice light rifling marks clear up on the nose of the bullet you really start to wonder about the handwringin weanies that always fly out of the closet, with the got to have a powder compression dies so you don't distort the bullets, real life experiences.

[docone31]

Hey, if I could get 6" at 300yds!
I have not yet found any fired castings. The range is pretty crowded this time of year and time is short. They have fuddy duddie hours, they close at 2pm.
I would love to find one to see where the lands actually engrave on the casting, let alone diagnose the situation on hand.
I use flat base castings. I found I get less tearing of the tail if I just lightly score the base before wrapping.
I have not yet had visible confetti, either from my observations, or anyone else's.
I am on the paper though, real close to the center.

[ktw]

I have found that paper stretch and distortion varies quite a bit depending on whether you cut the patches with, or across, the grain of the paper. This may, in part, explain the different results people have gotten with 2/3 wraps, resulting patched diameter, etc.

-ktw

[powderburnerr]

at some point with multiple wraps you would exceed the depth of the riflinng and the bullet could not obdurate to the necessary depth to seal and you may experiance slipping of the bullet on the lands as the wraps slide on one another , I saw this when we wrapped a 440 dia bullet to 76 cal , using newspaper at the cast boolit shoot in winnamucca . they bullet could not obdurate enough to seal and create the neccessary pressure to be a viable round at 20 feet , .. this is an extreme example but does illistrate my statement somewhat . I believe there is a picture of the wrapped bullet in cast pics.....dean

[Don McDowell]

docone you likely won't get the confetti, unless you go to a lighter paper and just 2 wraps. The 20lb paper that's working the best with my bullet (at the moment) doesn't confetti either, it's more like a recovered shot cup, only in 3 pieces.
For a bpcr load to proove competitive (in my mind anyway) it needs to be no larger than 3 inches at 300 and showing tendencies to go tighter.

[ktw]

For a bpcr load to proove competitive (in my mind anyway) it needs to be no larger than 3 inches at 300 and showing tendencies to go tighter.

Something I don't see discussed very often are the techniques necessary to achieve this kind of performance when not using a scoped rifle.

I have really only gotten away from scoped rifles and started shooting peep sights seriously in the last 3 or 4 years. I have been using one of the Lee Shaver tang soules/lyman globe front on a reproduction highwall.

Groups have been getting better over time as I gain more experience with the sights, but 1 MOA at 300 yards seems like a mighty high bar to get over when a 10" bull is nothing more than an itty bitty spec in the sights at that range.

Any tips, or links, you can pass along with respect to bench technique, apertures, targets, etc to get close to that kind of performance would be appreciated.

-ktw

[Don McDowell]

Something I don't see discussed very often are the techniques necessary to achieve this kind of performance when not using a scoped rifle.

I have really only gotten away from scoped rifles and started shooting peep sights seriously in the last 3 or 4 years. I have been using one of the Lee Shaver tang soules/lyman globe front on a reproduction highwall.

Groups have been getting better over time as I gain more experience with the sights, but 1 MOA at 300 yards seems like a mighty high bar to get over when a 10" bull is nothing more than an itty bitty spec in the sights at that range.

Any tips, or links, you can pass along with respect to bench technique, apertures, targets, etc to get close to that kind of performance would be appreciated.

-ktw

Good loads, and lots of trigger time. Listen to what your rifle tells you and forget about what some guru publishes on the net or in magazine articles. Your rifle knows more about what it wants than anybody else.
You also need to completely wash the scoped and smokeless nonsense completely out of your brain pan, and get into the zone. Forget about that target being further off than you would of ever attemted with your smokeless wonderweapon, concentrate on one spot on the target and forget the rest.
Then you need to be able to carry all that you learned and are capable of at your home range, into the firing line of competition, and that's the place where the winners trully get seperated from the folks that don't come out with the highest score.

[ktw]

Good loads, and lots of trigger time...

I understand developing skills with a lot of hard work and practice. I understand that there aren't any gadgets to buy or quick, easy shortcuts to circumvent the experience. I understand the difference between good loads and not so good loads. I am constantly amazed at how well a peep sighted rifle can shoot given what I am seeing through the sight.

I simply have a looooong way to go on my own personal journey to achieving 1 MOA at 300 yards with a peep sight. I plan to have a good time making the journey.

-ktw

[montana_charlie]

at some point with multiple wraps you would exceed the depth of the riflinng

I was waiting for someone to make that point.
That is a problem one might expect to encounter with three (or more) wraps.

I was hoping somebody (with 3-wrap experience) would speak, in detail, about how paper is cut...or perhaps just scored...by rifling.

For instance...
If groove depth is .004" 2 wraps of .002" paper would be cut all the way through.
But, if the .002" paper dropped to (say) .0017" from being stretched while wet, the total thickness becomes .0034".
The paper will get cut all the way through, but will the rifling also cut into the lead..creating the potential for leading in the bore?

On a 3-wrap patch with the same paper...
The total thickness (after stretching) is .0051". That means the rifling can only 'score' the inner wrap halfway through...with a slice .0006" deep.
Is that cut deep enough to cause the paper to finish separating along the 'score'...and blow off cleanly at the muzzle?

I want a bullet patched to .460".
Wrapped twice (with the paper I have for the purpose) I would need a .453" bullet to fill the chamber throat.
This paper will patch a .450" bullet to .4602" if wrapped three times.
That means I could order a mould which does not exceed bore diameter (highly desired), and still use the paper I currently have...two highly desired factors.

Why haven't I just gone ahead and ordered the mould?
Because I wonder if the 'scored' inner wrap will let go immediately at the muzzle.

If the prevailing wisdom is that it probably would not, then I would consider this alternative...
Start with a .449" bullet patched to .4592. As the lead obdurates, it should finish bursting the inner wrap along that 'scored' cut.

But, being less than the throat diameter of my chamber, I might expect to see the dreaded 'paper ring' with this combination...or any combination that used even smaller bullets.

So, there is what I wonder, versus what I think, versus what I want, versus what I hope to avoid.

I am open to any advice or suggestions that are specific to my goal.

For smokeless use, I size to 0.454" and patched diameter is 0.461".

That is very similar to what I have in mind, but I would prefer to stay at (or under) bore diameter for the naked bullet.
I have become convinced that patching to groove is a viable option...even when not using smokeless.
We'll just have to see about that part...

CM

[Don McDowell]

I simply have a looooong way to go on my own personal journey to achieving 1 MOA at 300 yards with a peep sight. I plan to have a good time making the journey.

-ktw

Keep up the steady pressure you'll do well. That moa group is an elusive bugger, it won't show up often, but you and your rifle will know its there just waiting to show its face.

[docone31]

Here is my example, for what it is worth. I am a rank amateur.
My Smelly, is .304 bore. I size the C312/185R mold to .308, then wrap either three times with Meade Acadieme Traceing Paper, or two wraps with printer paper. I then size them to .314.
My groove is .312.
Yes, I have slugged the barrel.
Upon firing,
No visible confetti. No recovered paper, also no recovered castings.
However, my groups got quite small at 100yds. I just finished bedding the barrel, I hope to make the groups smaller.
I use smokeless powder.
There are some severe and comprehensive things I do not know about paper patching, however, I know how my Smelly shoots.
Given the current advice, I should have made the core casting .304. My casting has a nose of .304, and I size to .308. That gives me .004 over bore. My paper, the Meade is .0015, the printer paper is .002.
When I wrap with the Meade, I get .3135. These I used unsized, or as wrapped. The Printer paper is .317 or .318. I seem to get both. These size real well to .314. The casting has lube lands. These size down pretty well, leaving only shadows. I also wrap 1/2 of the way between the crimp groove, and tip of the casting.
I do not even understand why I am getting the decent results I have. I presume, the rifleing, cuts and imprints the paper on, and into the rifleing grooves. As I have not recovered a fired casting, I do not know if the rifleing has imprinted the casting itself. I presume so as the bore is only .304, compared to .308 sizing.
I have not experienced the compressed paper ring in the throat.
I do know, I can outshoot my milsurp loads with paper.
My thoughts on the process,
The pressure is like a ram behind the base of the projectile.
It equally presses on both the engraved and unengraved portion of the base.
The casting expands, bumps up, to fill the bore/groove.
Cut pieces of patch in both the unengraved, and engraved projectile exit the barrel at the same time.
I am guessing, the only real metal contact of the boolitt, is the sides of the rifleing.
I have not had key holes in the paper at 100yds.
My patches should exit the barrel in 10 leafs, with the base falling behind. I have not seen any pieces at all. I don't know what is happening with that.
That is with my recent range experience.
In short, I do not have a clue what is happening, but that is what I have exerienced.
I have been fascinated, and like the results.
I can just sit and patch my rounds in short time.
I have never been so interested in something, this goes way beyond just pushing jacketed into a shell. This has been an experience.
I hope that helps someone, or someone can tell me what happened.

[RMulhern]

docone31

Get ya one of the 'Boomer .45s.....go to BLACK....and it will even be MORE INTERESTING!!

[docone31]

I want me a Rolly Block!
I want one,
I want one,
I want one!
Wanna do it in 45/90 Octagonal.
I had several Sharps. I liked em.
Believe it or not, I never patched the loads.
I did not paper patch untill my Smelly.
Someday, I am going to git me a Norwegian Rolly Block.

[powderburnerr]

Charlie ,I have one mould that casts 439 and I use a 3tho paper on it . it cuts the top layer and creases the second and I find 1/2 patches all the time . this is a two wrap bullet at that size and it shoots very well even with only cutting the inner paper , I think it might slide if the paper was that thick wrapped three times It would have no way to grab the inner layer , especially dry , the way I do it.....Dean