Divorce and suicide

[Hogtamer]

Context is everything! In the sermon on the mount Jesus was explaining the difference in the Kingdom and the world. He constantly admonished the Jews who proudly claimed adherence to Mose's Law. He started with the beatitudes that make no sense in context of this world but establish the truth and grace of Kingdom life. Looking at women with a lustful heart is the same as the act of adultery. Wishing another dead is the same as murder. These things point to the gulf between man and God, the gulf only Jesus could remove by a perfect sacrifice. You've made your laws men and look where they've gotten you. "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden....." Some choose not, and endless bickeriing and striving about the law continues. Only Christ followed every "jot and tittle" of the law and if that's the path you choose expect to be judged against that perfection.

[Blackwater]

In addressing the original question here, I think the question is fatally flawed. God has given us the best advice and instruction we could ever hope to have. And to compare one "rule" with another is worse than comparing apples and oranges! Our job isn't to determine questions like these, but to learn to trust and obey what we've been given, and to overcome our own mortal desires. When our eyes are on the Master, and we're truly grateful for all that he has given and done for us, questions like these go "poof," and simply disappear in the folds of gratefulness and satisfaction with the wondrous things we've been provided with.

I will say that regarding suicide, the Catholic church, perhaps the most consistently "conservative" sect of Christianity, once declared that a suicide could not get to Heaven. However, in more recent years, as more and more has been discovered about how brain chemistry can and does affect our moods and behavior, the Catholic church has slacked off on that, and made some provisions whereby suicides MAY be buried on consecrated ground, and has decided that maybe they can go to Heaven as well.

As to divorce, that, IMO, is one of those things that each person must hash out for his or her own self. Divorce simply because one "falls out of love" seems to obviously be borne of one's mortal expectations and fantasies rather than any concern with God's laws. It seems, with the world population being split almost 50/50 male and female, that one man plus one woman marriages are the normally expected and provided for set up for us, as ordained by God. With women being the baby bearers, and with inheritances and at times, transfer of power, being dependent on knowing a child is ours (or whoever's), it seems obvious that faithfulness to one's mate is the norm and not to be defied lightly by either party.

One can analyze these things until one has a headache, and I feel one coming on now, so I'll leave this thread and try to find something inspiring. I need it right now.

[Hickory]

Neither one offers a good outcome, you can recover from divorce, but not suicide.

[dtknowles]

First John 1:9 declares, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Therefore, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is to reject Christ and the forgiveness He offers. So, in that sense, the "greatest sin" is not believing in Jesus.

As to divorce...confessing our sin should yield forgiveness.

As to suicide...I see the same result (forgiveness) if someone prays to Jesus before committing the act.

To be forgiven don't you have to admit that you have done wrong and undo that wrong to the best of your ability. You can have done wrong and be happy about it and be forgiven. To be forgiven for a divorce you would have to be willing to remarry the person you divorced and you can't be forgiven for suicide, you can ask for forgiveness in advance but since you are not properly repentant you can't be forgiven. You can't love Jesus and ask him to forgive you for what you are about to do when you know it is wrong. To knowingly and willingly act against the will of God is a sin and you can't repent if you are dead but you maybe can do penance in purgatory.

Tim

[dtknowles]

In my philosophy neither is a sin if the act does more good than harm. Sin is the harm you do to the works of God. If killing yourself hurts no one and helps someone it is not a sin.

Tim

[dh2]

Divorce is permissible under condition of adultery and by some domestic violence , as far as many religions go ,But suicide I know no condition by any religion that I am aware of is not permissible, and only leaves a bigger mess behind for loved ones, I have been divorced you can heal and move forward in my case with the help of the church, but suicide no one will ever heal.

[wv109323]

Jesus forgave the woman at the well. She had been married 5 times and living with another.

[dverna]

David had either 6 or 7 wives....one way around divorce I suppose. It will be argued multiple wives allowed alliances to be bond in blood and were “necessary” for the strength of Israel. And David orchestrated the death of Bathsheba’s husband so deep was his lust for her. God seemingly approved or at least forgave him, as she bore David 4 sons. The whole concept of multiple wives and concubines might be considered a sin?

King Henry the 8th had wives murdered to avoid divorce....I do not see these sins as equal.

[Hannibal]

Clearly I've no way of knowing God's will, nor would I dare to pretend so. So what follows is simply the random thoughts of a soft-headed old man.

I can only only presume that sins are not 'ranked' to prevent mankind from electing to choose 'lessor' sins as justification for an act.
And as mentioned above, why some men behaved in apparently sinful ways yet remained blessed by God such as Samson is a question I can not fathom an answer for.

[Thundarstick]

Sorry, I messed up the quote during editing!

As I am married to a once married and divorced woman (Not her fault) The Lord and I ended up having some pretty long talks about this subject. For a time I was her husband in every way but in bed. Now I don't know if he was testing me? Testing my Wife? Eventually it came down to the ex abandoning her and her newborn child. His taking up with her best friend, fathering 5 children on her. 3 of them born with another mans name. (But really ********) When I brought up under the old law he would have been stoned to death for adultery The Lord stopped asking me to restrain myself from my wife. Not that at 66 with health issues it is a big problem, because the opposite is true. Little willy is tired and retired, sleeping most of the time and frankly I'm ok with that. Over 60 sex is a lot of work. A good backscratch and snuggle can be better.[/QUOTE]

This is an interesting scenario. Does sex make one married, or not? Can we cohabitate as man and wife (legal by man, yet against God's law) but be justified as long as we are celibate?

[DCP]

In Christian hamartiology, eternal sins, unforgivable sins, or unpardonable sins are sins which will not be forgiven by God. One eternal or unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is specified in several passages of the Synoptic Gospels, including Mark 3:28–29, Matthew 12:31–32, and Luke 12:10.

[Hannibal]

Sorry, I messed up the quote during editing!

As I am married to a once married and divorced woman (Not her fault) The Lord and I ended up having some pretty long talks about this subject. For a time I was her husband in every way but in bed. Now I don't know if he was testing me? Testing my Wife? Eventually it came down to the ex abandoning her and her newborn child. His taking up with her best friend, fathering 5 children on her. 3 of them born with another mans name. (But really ********) When I brought up under the old law he would have been stoned to death for adultery The Lord stopped asking me to restrain myself from my wife. Not that at 66 with health issues it is a big problem, because the opposite is true. Little willy is tired and retired, sleeping most of the time and frankly I'm ok with that. Over 60 sex is a lot of work. A good backscratch and snuggle can be better.

This is an interesting scenario. Does sex make one married, or not? Can we cohabitate as man and wife (legal by man, yet against God's law) but be justified as long as we are celibate?[/QUOTE]

From what I understand, all you would have to do is *think* about having sex and it would be the same sin.

[Hickok]

There is only one unforgivable sin, denying the gift of eternal life through faith and belief in Christ Jesus. He died for our sins on the cross, he paid the entire price of sin, and cried out "It is finished."

If we turn away, or deny what He did for us, we have called God a liar, and have already condemned ourselves.

We as humans will still do stupid things, harmful things, wrong things, and sinful things, but nothing is stronger than the Blood Of Christ Jesus, that washes us clean of all sin. Our own folly can lead to physical death, but if we have been saved by faith in Jesus, He gives us eternal life.

Jesus will not loose one of His own, they are of His flock, and He will never leave one of His own or forsake one of His own. Bad health, mental problems, severe depression, or lack of good judgement that leads to death, will not cause Jesus to cast off one of His own who have been saved by faith in Him.

We are not perfect, we err, we fail. Jesus never fails, never falters, He is Perfect.

Jesus is all powerful, all knowing and all mighty. Christ Jesus has defeated the accuser, Satan. The devil cannot have any soul protected by the blood of Messiah, Yeshua!

[dtknowles]

It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

[DCP]

It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

You're in my prayers. Blessings

[dtknowles]

You're in my prayers. Blessings

In what way am I in your prayers? I hope you don't pray that I am called to Jesus. That would be evil. If you pray my greater understanding, good. If you pray that I have good health, good.

Tim

[DCP]

In what way am I in your prayers? I hope you don't pray that I am called to Jesus. That would be evil. If you pray my greater understanding, good. If you pray that I have good health, good.

Tim

Why do you feel you have the right to dictate what I pray about? Why are you so argumentative, and unhappy?
Who are you really mad at. What are you afraid of?
Send me your phone and I can give you a call.
We could have a nice talk.

Vaya con Dios

[UKShootist]

It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

It does seem that the opinions of non-christians, and indeed, non-christians themselves, rarely seem welcome here. I am reminded of a remark I heard made, allegedly, by a pope many years ago about Malta. There's too much religion and not enough Christianity.

Me? I hover between atheism and agnosticism while adopting freethinking Zen Buddhism, which I consider to be the only rational theosophy, albeit corrupted by ignorant frightened adherents into a religion. Here's a thing though. Science can be wrong, but when it discovers that it is wrong in recovers, in a constant striving to find the truth. Scientists will admit the possibility of being wrong and continue to seek the truth. Faith is always right, even when it's wrong. That being the case, which faith to choose becomes the issue. I firmly believe, whether atheist or agnostic, that 'faith' is the most preposterous of all humankind's failings. How can you have more faith in your religion than a Muslim suicide bomber calling upon his God as he detonates himself to death? You cannot deny him his faith. it would be preposterous to do so. And the biggest sinners of all are those faithful who will lie in order to convert, and they are all around. Pious preachers living a millionaire's lifestyle.

Hmmm...... More than I intended to say, but worth the saying I believe.

[Ickisrulz]

It seems here in Deeply Theological, there are very few voices from non-Christians. Sort of narrows the points of view.

TEK

This area of the forum is a sub-section of the Chapel. The Chapel (i.e., not mosque, temple or synagogue) was set up for Christians and by extension the "Deep Theological" area is for use by Christians (or honest seekers) to discuss biblical ideas, teachings and understandings. To me anyway, people coming here to troll, argue or assert their humanistic opinions ruin this section.

[DCP]

When I say, “I am a Christian”.
”I’m not shouting, “I’ve been saved!” I’m whispering, “I get lost! That’s why I chose this way
When I say, “I am a Christian”.
I don’t speak with human pride I’m confessing that I stumble – Needing God to be my guide
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong I’m professing that I’m weak And pray for strength to carry on.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success I’m admitting that I’ve failed And cannot ever pay the debt.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I don’t think I know it all I submit to my confusion Asking humbly to be taught.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect My flaws are all too visible But God believes I’m worth it.
When I say, “I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain I have my share of heartache, Which is why I seek His name.
When I say, “I am a Christian” I do not wish to judge I have no authority…
I only know I’m loved
by Carol Wimmer