AllanD, I just saw this on another forum and thought of you: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/...?topic=54367.0
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AllanD, I just saw this on another forum and thought of you: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/...?topic=54367.0
Originally Posted by Maven
I hope that price is negotiable since the same new gun costs $448 plus $4 shipping from here:--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/lyman...flintlock.html
Ever wonder when someone says that they shot a gun 5 times, do they mean 5 shots or 5 range sessions?
Last edited by arcticap; 05-08-2019 at 02:33 PM.
yeah greatly over priced goods lol
So, post #61 was addressed to AllanD in an attempt to help him out. The question is, why are you two commenting on it?
gotta watch each others backs, especially for new guys looking for a decent buy. Some do not know of places where they can get better deals.
2nd that /it"s why this forum exists/Ed
No offense was intended, but there's two ways to give someone a message.
A public post that every member can offer advice about or by private message which stays private.
the guy who posted on american long rifle, probably bought this at a retail store. Basically paying retail. Midsouth sells this rifle new for $448.00. A rifle will sell for what someone is willing to pay for it. The seller did not state where he is located. For all we know, he could be in Canada. It is premature to assume it is overpriced.
gotta be careful with all used trad muzzleloaders. here's an example a breech plug and breech that i pulled from an Extremely clean (exterior!) GPR ...
thats going to happen regardless. Im shooting a 130+ year old shotgun and for sure its going to have some rust in the breech plug. Most importantly, the threads are clean and thats what matters.
NO - rust and corrosion does not, nor should not happen, if the barrel is properly maintained. i have had trad muzzleloaders for over two decades with zero rust/corrosion. expecting to have, and live with rust/corrosion is a maintenance process that's totally up to a gun's user. it's an elective thing and not something that's always going to happen to all guns.
Hello!!!!!
Read the article ------all he cites is CVA inlines and fake powder pellet loads.
I've been shooting CVA - SIDELOCKS - real muzzle loaders - for thirty years - never the hint of a problem - nor from any of my fellow shooters
Where this gets wrong is with FAKE muzzle loaders (INLINES) designed with the specific purpose to outwit the hunting laws and gain a week at opening of the season - loading a boltaction look alike inline with fake powder and a sabot bullet is not muzzle loading - despite what the courts might say about it.
Add to that the most inexperienced of blackpowder shooters and an attitude problem gets a recipe for disaster - its a safe bet that at least some of these disasters were in guns that had been loaded at some point with smokeless powder
Even one of the manufacturers was recomending smokeless in their inline ML - thats a recipe for idiot induced disaster if ever there was such.
Last edited by indian joe; 05-09-2019 at 09:18 PM.
I am in agreement with Indian Joe on the opinion of Inline Fake Muzzleloaders.
I have shot BP for over 30 Years, and have only fired an Inline Once.
And that was into my Test Chamber to clear a Sabot out of a friends inline when he forgot to put the Fake powder into it and stripped out the end of the Sabot trying to use a Ball Puller to get it out.
I think they are like Joe said.
Just around for people to add a week to their hunting season, and they have no Natural or learned skills in what BP is all about.
But I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, it is just my personal opinion on what I want to shoot and take the extra time to practice Off Season to get good at what I like to shoot.
amen!!
I have to disagree, with the opinion on in lines! First let me say, that I am a die hard traditional muzzle loading fan, love them, shot them for 35+ years hunting and competition. I took 43 deer with traditional weapons, and still have 18 of them I shoot regularly. I was one of the guys who swore he would never hunt with an inline. Saying this, as a gunsmith, I worked on several every year, that would not go off, because the owner did not do due diligence in cleaning or prepping them before loading. I could never, ever get any powder to shoot nearly as good as Holy Black, case closed. I was gifted a TC Omega, new in the box. To not hurt anyones feelings, I started playing with it, scoped,early one summer, and thru the summer I found several loads, that shot 1" or less groups for 3 shots at 100yds with holy black, none of the replacement powders came close. I took it out Mule deer hunting in Nebraska,, and killed my first mule deer buck at 180 yds. He ran 30 yds and piled up. I had a Burris FF2, with mil dot type has marks and I had practiced out to 200 yds, with the scope set at 6x, and knew which hash mark to hold on with at nearly 200yds. The next year I was open minded enough to try BH 209, due to a good friend, Roger Johnson, who used to be on this forum daily. He searched for absolutely true accuracy in all of his guns, and obtained it with BH 209, I saw the man shoot small groups at 250 yds with a peep sighted ML the size of a snuff can. I gave the BH209 another go the next year, after putting a NIkon INline XR 300 scope on my Omega, with real world BDC's every 50 ydards, this scope is made for a ML!!! After going on BH's website, following their instructions to the tee, I was soon getting one hole 3 shot groups at 100yd, all day long, from a benchrest. I then made targets with a cross on them, white board, 20"wide by 24" long. Using a Lecia rangefinder, I set them out at 150, 200, 250 and 300 yds. Every BDC was spot on, within 1"+/- at all ranges out to 300 yds. The first shot I fired at 300 yds was within 1.1/4 inches of the cross, with a .300gr ballistic tip copper plated slug, with a sabot. I then fired 2 more, with all 3 shots going into 1.780 inches. I then shot 3 more that went into 2.350 inch, at 300yds also. All groups from 150 to 250, usually had two bullets close together with a 3rd one being within an inch. Outstanding accuracy from a modern ML, and scope, which was 3x9, I cant shoot one this power any better, and I don't think most folks can either. That fall I took a #200 8pt at 150 yds here in KY, and a doe here at 250yds, both deer dropped at the shot, and bullets completely penetrated, and left big exit holes. That same year I went back to Nebraska mule deer hunting on public land, and shot a big forkhorn, with a19"inside spread, face on, in the chest and the 300gr slug exited out thru the ham, at ranged 178 yds. The buck took 2 steps and stood on his head. We weighed him gutted at the local feed mill, he went #225. I have since taken several deer with this same load between 150-280 yds with my longest shot, bein 280yds double shoulders on a #135 doe, she dropped in her tracks and the bullet left a silver dollar sized hole. Now I still small game hunt with a long rifle, and deer hunt under 100yds with a .54 TC Hawkens and maxi balls I mold. But when I am going out west, and traveling a lot of miles on my dime, I take a proven performer, that loads down the spout.
Your post pretty much reinforces my argument
Fake gun - fake powder - scope sight - rangefinder - sabot bullets I spose ?? With a rig like that do you really think you deserve a weeks head start at the easy front end of the season ????? ......Its a modern gun should be shot in the main season.
I dont blame you really, somebody made the rules, they could just as easy change them if they had a clue, but there would always be somebody figured out an edge. If it was me makin the rule it would be sidelock round ball muzzle loaders ....simple .?
Last edited by indian joe; 05-13-2019 at 07:51 AM.
There's not much if any performance difference between an inline rifle and a Whitworth sniper rifle from the civil war era.
It's all civil war technology.
People shoot Gibbs rifles and other original or reproduction muzzle loaders with larger conicals out to 700 yards in competition.
So koger is only shooting less than half that distance and hitting his target.
The US has a massive deer population problem and a declining number of hunters.
What's the difference if someone chooses an inline to hunt an extra season with?
That's the exact same reason why many people choose to hunt deer in Pennsylvania's late flintlock deer season.
They want an additional hunting opportunity.
People here have the freedom to spend their money on their gun of choice and then choose which season that they want to hunt in.
And there's also flintlock rifles that have a fast twist.
Nothing is worse than someone who wants to tell other people who live in a state beside their own that they don't have the right to self-government and the freedom to make legal choices.
The US is not a commie or dictatorship state, we live in the land of the free that honors self-government.
No one wants to die in a car accident with a deer due to a lack of game management.
If koger can make the same shot on a deer using a Whiteworth or a Gibbs rifle, then realize the reason why an inline is allowed and legal.
Because the people who live in that state say that it's accepted as being traditional which is their absolute right.
We are a nation of laws that protects people's rights and state's rights.
If someone thinks that they know better than the people who vote for their own representatives, then vote for someone else and try to change the law where you live.
But if someone wants to dictate or complain about how people should govern themselves in a state where they don't even live, that shows a lack of respect and understanding
about how our Republic works.
It's a matter of respecting the rest of the black powder community and also the 2A.
If people don't like inlines then why do they visit a forum that includes modern muzzle loading and invent fake reasons to insult people?
Every one hunts on a level playing field since they can all choose from the same guns to hunt with in their own state.
Just remember that a Whiteworth or a Gibbs rifle performs just as well as any inline, and perhaps even better.
And some states allow cartridge guns during their "primitive" season and that's none of my business since I don't live there and wouldn't dare complain about it.
I have too much respect for our country, each state and its citizens.
Last edited by arcticap; 05-13-2019 at 08:27 PM.
arcticap,
QUOTE:The US is not a commie or dictatorship state, we live in the land of the free that honors self-government. UNQUOTE; ACTUALLY.............. we do live in a commie dictatorship state. Look at what the dems have done to this country in the past 30 years. (RANT OVER).
the northeast has the deer over population problem. Here in N.M., the deer herd is in danger of being an endangered species, because of the poaching problem.
N.M. has a dedicated truly primitive weapon season. (NO inlines allowed). Each state has their own rules governing what is a legal weapon. Some states have rules as to what is a minimum caliber, Projectile style.
I only have cap locks. No inlines........... but that is a personal choice. When inlines were introduced here, many hunters were outraged over the inline. But many............ adapted and took a liking to them. It nearly killed the traditional muzzle loading sales market here in N.M.
Indian Joe, I was hunting the late ml season, in December, no early season handicap there, if anything I was hunting with a handicap from weeks of rifle season, months of bow season already done, and the deer well educated. Artic cap, I appreciate your comments. I have a copy of a Whitmore, not whitworth, that I built. With peep sights marked every 50 yards it is deadly out to 250 yds, and I have taken deer nearly that far with it. It is a half stock, with 32", 1" .45 barrel with 1-20 twist with a globe front sight with Lee Shaver inserts. It shoots between a .451, 430 gr slug with a wide meplat for hunting and a 500 gr slug for target shooting. No deer ever shot with it took a step, the last two were a doe bedded down on a slope. at 100yds, never much more than wiggled at the shot, and a buck was chasing a doe around a ridge tip, across a big holler, at 170 yds, and he stopped. I had the range by thin, move the sight between 150-200 yard mark, split the difference. He was facing away at a slight quarter, I took a prone rest, put the sight on his ham and touched her off. Due to recoil, I shot a little high, hit the ham knuckle, went thru the ham and out, thru 3 ribs , and back in thru the vitals, and out the front of the chest! He dropped like someone had pulled a rug out from under him. It took me about 20 minutes to back trail to where my ridge and the one the deer was on intersected. When I got there, he was a big buck, and later weighed out #165 gutted, 8pt. I field dressed him and when I stood up wiping my hands off, I look at the red clay bank about 8 feet away, where the dirt had been pushed up from a logging skidder pulling logs out, and I saw a3/4" hole. I went over and looked at it, then cut me a small limb and stuck in the hole, it went in I would later find out, 13". I laid the limb aside, got out my hunting knife and dug into the bank till I found the slug, perfectly intact and mushroomed. I put it and the stick in my back pack, and started dragging the buck out. The next day I got the stick out and it measured 13", the .451 pure lead slug I had poured, weighed 430 grains before firing, and still weighed 417 grains! It had mushroomed to .910 when I checked it with my calipers. That slug had went thru nearly 4 feet of bone and muscle, and into a clay bank over a foot! Now this is perfect performance, with a period correct gun, circa 1850, and it was overkill to the max, but very rewarding and made the hours of practice, spent building the gun, pouring and sizing bullets, weighing and sorting them seem well spent. Now I feel the same pride, when I shot the doe at 279 yards. I had practiced just as much as I had with the traditional rifle, burned 3 cans of powder and countless bullets and sabots, and had the utmost confidence when I made the shot, justly so. The buddy who was hunting with me, would only shoot to 150 yds with his traditional ML, but he was tickled to death to see me make the shot, and vouched for me when retelling the tale in the local gun shop. If some folks don't want to push the envelope with either traditional or modern ML, I understand that and applaud them, for knowing their and their equipment limitations. I put a cap on my guns at 300yds for the Inline and 250 for the traditional slug gun. I take great pride in making both the shots, good clean kills, because I can, due to hours spent shooting both guns. I dare anyone to tell me I am cheating when shooting either rifle. Like most things in life, there are talkers, and there are doers!! I know I am in the latter description. I would never presume to dictate to anyone their hunting style and choice of weapon, as long as they hunt and make humane, clean kills, legally. Folks we are getting fewer in number every day, and if we don't stick together as hunters, we will suffer the consequences, nuff said.
Reading your reply I understand why Roger said you were a straight shooter PUN intended , keep doing what your doing sounds like your good at it/Ed
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