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Thread: Lyman 358429 38 Special High Velocity with Unique

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Van Gelder View Post
    The 358429 was designed for the .38 spl.
    And now we have all these modern versions right out of the box, like Mihec with different HP pins. I like the weight options with different pins.

    .


    ( I compared different temps here, from frosty to shiny. Silky in the middle is the best as usual, only change was casting cadence. Very easy to get silky! )

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfswithwolves View Post
    I had not considered the aspect of 38-44 rounds and 38 Special rounds being of identical appearance, but they certainly are! As I do load for both my S&W Heavy Duty (38-44) and also for regular 38 Specials, I can see where it is a good idea to somehow definitely mark the containers of the heavier loads as NOT FOR STANDARD .38 SPECIAL REVOLVERS. Thanks for pointing this out.
    That's why I use +p cases only for 38/44 loads. But if you have a variety of loads and guns you may need a better system like john's color coating (fingernail polish on the case heads)
    -Mike

  3. #83
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    I have been using a loading of 12.0 gr. of 6 month old #2400 in New Starline 38 +P brass with Elmer's #358429 boolit cast by Western Bullet Company (170 gr. wt) in my 1 year old Taurus Model 66 7-shot 4" Stainless bought New and really like it alot, nice and comfortable load, and very accurate. The OP posted a load of 6 gr. of Unique in 38 cases, which sounds very interesting to me for a mid-range load. I'm up here in Minnesota so I will have to wait for Spring to go out to try it though, Arthritis and cold weather puts too much of a "Hitch in my Git-a-long". Thanks to the OP for putting that load up for me to see. Happy Trails Folks.

    P.S. I did forget the primer that I used in the above #2400 load, a CCI-500 Small Pistol Primer. I always forget something in my posts, thank God for the "Edit Function".
    Last edited by Gunner38; 12-07-2019 at 05:02 AM.

  4. #84
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    I have the hollow point version of the 358429 as well, I shot a mt. lion with those and they did not penetrate well. They were a medium alloy loaded to an average velocity of 1200 fps. I found over the years they were suitable for pests and small predators for anything bigger the solids worked better.

  5. #85
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    John, I would like to find some #358439 to buy somewhere (or the like) lead HP's to load up myself. Some that are Not as hard as a rock that is, and will expand in the field.

  6. #86
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    Such a great bullet. Got the 13 BHN Mihec HP version shooting great in full house 357 load right away.



    Here are softer ones for 38 Special:


  7. #87
    Boolit Master curioushooter's Avatar
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    One of the limits on 357 Mag brass, is that it's internal volume is large enough that reduced loads tend to have erratic ignition and accuracy issues.
    This is basically the same with 38. Both cases are greatly "oversized."

    I find that Tightgroup works quite well in 38 or 357 as it seems to be position and case fill insensitive. It is my go-to powder for light loads, but be cautious. Double or even triple or quadruple charging the case is a possibility. What a kaboom that would be! Unique or Trailboss are bulky enough to prevent this, but they are both a bit too fast for what I would call 357 Medium loads. Blue Dot is the correct theoretical burn rate, but for whatever reason I've found 2400 with just a reduced charge works a little better in my revolvers.

    For whatever reason 358429 pushed by 12 grains of 2400 in my M19 is incredibly accurate. More accurate than any 38 "target loads" I've made so far. I tried 6.0 grains of Unique and it was not as accurate, was smokier, and had 100-150 FPS less velocity. Though the recoil seems greater using the 2400 load, it seems like a more smooth roll of recoil than with Unique, which was snappier feeling. But I like them both.

    Marlin M1894 .357 carbine. In my Marlin, the 358429 seated in the crimp groove is too long to feed reliably in the Marlin.
    In my marlin the 358429 crimped in the groove of a 357 results in a jam; too long to allow the elevator to raise the case. Requires removal of the lever (and hence a screwdriver) to clear. In a 38 case it is fine; however; it is not necessary to use a 38 case. The .135" difference in case length between is the 357 and 38 is more than is needed to to make it work. I only trim off .06" from a mag case to get it to feed, and this is still enough lenght to prevent anyone from putting this round into a 38 special chamber. So you have properly marked brass, of proper case strength, and you retain the inherent safety feature of magnum vs. special brass. The only prob is the "crud ring" which will be there anyway...even with the full length brass. It's just a nominally longer.

    I suspect this is true of all 357 Marlins, so I don't know why this hasn't been brought up yet. Lee makes a custom trim gauge pin for like 10 bucks or you can just take a 357 one and file down the pin end to your liking. It's only 60 thousands you need to take off. This is like a $5 solution. And doesn't require all the agonizing going on here.

    The advocacy of using 38 cases for magnum loads is so wrong for so many reasons, the first of which being safety. Not going to even go there...
    Last edited by curioushooter; 12-23-2019 at 03:57 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Speed View Post
    Does anyone have the pressure associated with the 358429 in 38 Spl cases? 25-30k psi?
    28044psi per quickload

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photog View Post
    28044psi per quickload
    Thank you!

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy fn1889m's Avatar
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    So the Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd Ed. lists the max load for .38 spl for 358429 (169 gn) as Unique, 5.0 gn, for 860 fps. The Lyman Cast Bullet 4th Ed. lists the max load for 358429 as Unique, 4.2 gn, for 841 fps.

    I assume from this thread that 5 gn of Unique under a 170 nominal grain bullet in .38 spl fired on a .357 magnum chamber such as a New Vaquero or 686 would be safe. But why the reduction in the max charge over time?

    I would like to get about 900 fps using that bullet and Unique. Tumble lubed, etc. I try to stay under 1000 fps with various PB bullets.

  11. #91
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    If you look up the thread on this forum titled 38/44 loads there is a reprint of an article from the old Handloads forum, with some pretty comprehensive load data for high velocity .38 spl loads. The 358427 loaded over 6 gr. of Unique produced 1085 fps. These should be used in .357 rated guns.

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...39-38-44-loads

    And here is the link to the actual data.. http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByC...al%20Loads.pdf
    Last edited by John Van Gelder; 08-14-2022 at 10:16 AM.

  12. #92
    Boolit Buddy fn1889m's Avatar
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    Thanks. Read the data. I am not trying to shoot past the Van Allen belt. Will try 5 gn Unique in .38 Spl. For 5 and 5.5 inch barrels. Just trying to find some vintage loads to match the bullet.

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    fn1889m

    In all actuality the 'vintage' loads tend to be hotter than modern +P. Over many years using the 358429 bullet, bought my old single cavity mold in 1968, I have found that it works best, accuracy wise when driven at higher velocities.

    There is a lot to be said about that bullet loaded in .357 cases to the 1300 fps mark, when shot at extreme ranges beyond 200 yards, that bullet retains it energy better than the standard 240 gr. .44 magnum loading. Pushed out of a rifle you can pretty much duplicate .30-30 ballistics.

    If it comes to the point where assault rifles are banned, a good lever gun in .357 should keep the "Enemy from the Gate".

  14. #94
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    ONE thing that might be tried to achieve higher velocity loads, without pushing the edge of the envelope with charge weights, is to switch to polymer-coated projectiles. I've noticed that I'll gain 3 - 8% in muzzle velocity, depending on the load of interest. I'm guessing that the somewhat higher lubricity of the polymer coating enables greater acceleration as the bullet travels through the barrel.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
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    Carpe SCOTCH!

  15. #95
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    A load I like for the .38/44 is 6.0 grains of Unique (.38 Special cases of course for my S&W Heavy Duty) and the Lyman 358439 HP bullet (weight about 165 grains). This gives excellent accuracy, easy recoil, and 1010 fps average in my 5" revolver. Not quite the same as the heavier 173 grain 358429 bullet but close, and I reckon it is a useful load. As Mr. Van Gelder has pointed out in this thread, he finds the 6.0 grain Unique load to be good with the 358429 as well (both loads for use in the strongest .38 revolvers or .357 Magnums only, because they are of higher pressure than +P). Too bad nobody manufactures .38/44 revolvers anymore! Bob
    Last edited by Golfswithwolves; 08-19-2022 at 01:07 AM.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Van Gelder View Post
    fn1889m

    In all actuality the 'vintage' loads tend to be hotter than modern +P. Over many years using the 358429 bullet, bought my old single cavity mold in 1968, I have found that it works best, accuracy wise when driven at higher velocities.

    There is a lot to be said about that bullet loaded in .357 cases to the 1300 fps mark, when shot at extreme ranges beyond 200 yards, that bullet retains it energy better than the standard 240 gr. .44 magnum loading. Pushed out of a rifle you can pretty much duplicate .30-30 ballistics.

    If it comes to the point where assault rifles are banned, a good lever gun in .357 should keep the "Enemy from the Gate".
    I've had good luck shooting the 358429 in a 16'' Antonio Rossi lever action. Using 357 cases I crimp on the front driving band so it can feed through the action and use plenty of 296 to get the velocity up. The Rossi has a slower twist rate and cartridge looks a bit odd crimped on the front band but it is definitely a deer stopper.
    Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.

  17. #97
    Boolit Buddy John Van Gelder's Avatar
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    Petander

    I was going over some of the posts in this thread, and just took note of the size of the cavity in you hollow point bullets, I have the same bullet but the cavity in mine is much smaller, it is a pretty old mold. For better expansion I have used the HP pin out of my .44 hollow point mold.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check