Ballistic Products Inc - New Sabot

[44man]

Thank you. A few more questions though. What happens if wads are put in the sabot to raise the Lee so the tits go in the crimp groove?
Is the gas check needed to enlarge the base? Would it be a good idea to open the gas check portion of the mold for a larger base?
How about making a mold with GG's like a tumble lube Lee for more bite but with sharp edges instead of rounded ones.
There are other options too like the Lee .50 caliber Minie' balls, number .500-354M and .500-360M. Change the hollow base plug for a flat base.
Lots of things to look at but to save money we need the guys with these molds to send a few boolits to see what they look like in the sabot.
James, I agree that we don't need the super velocities. Accuracy is more important then anything. That has been my criteria for revolvers but this sabot thing is new to me. I only shoot round balls in my muzzle loaders. I shoot one ragged hole at 50 yd's and can hit tiny targets at 200 meters off hand with a round ball, NO WAY I will buy a modern pistol bullet shooting abortion called a muzzle loader! I can shoot over 200 rounds a day without EVER wiping the bore using the right lube, patch and ball fit. Try THAT with a sabot!

[snuffy]

Hmmmmm, lots of good questions, but first here's a couple of pics of before and after roll crimping.





These had 80# pounds of pressure put directly on the ends of the boolits, to seat them completely into the sabots, and to put pressure on the OP wad and card wad. That left between .390 and .410 between the end of the sabot petals and the end of the shell.

Oh, I found another use for bullplate lube. It works great for lubing the roll crimper. That makes the roll crimp oh so smooth and perfessional looking!

Now, I just tried to see where the boolit would have to sit to allow the tits to engage the crimp groove. OMG the boolit would be at least ¼ inch from the bottom of the sabot! I do have some ¼ .410 card wads, but that would make the boolit stick way out in front of the end of the petals. Not worth trying IMHO.

As for the gas check rebate, it makes an impression in the bottom of the sabot, caused by acceleration upset. That seems like it might help grip the boolit even better than if it were full caliber down there. I'm not about to try anything else, why argue with success?

AND this is getting expensive. I got another 2 bags of sabots, but I'm running out of primed MT'S. I haven't tried REloading any of the fired shells,,,YET. I may do that, the crimps don't look that bad.

[snuffy]

Another range session. Today I decided to go try longer ranges. I sighted in about 2" high @ 50 yds.

I got to thinking about the Lyman sabot slugs I had cast about a year ago. I came up with a load from the Lyman shotshell handbook. 35.0 grains of IMR 4756, a AA red wad, WW 209 primer, in a rem. gun club hull. The following pic is the 50 yd. target with the BP sabot scope adjuster group around the upper bull. The lower group is four of the Lyman sabot slugs. Not bad for picking a load out of a book! I expected them to kick a lot harder than they did. I didn't bother to set up the chrono, so I have to remain in the dark as to velocity.



Next I went to the 100 yd range. The next pic is the scanned target from the 100 yd range. The 30 cal holes are from my Savage .308 that I was sighting in/shooting a group. It never has been a tack driver!



Horizontal stringing, can't figure that one out! But what is surprising is the elevation stayed the same as 50! Then I moved over to the 200 yd range. That 3 shot group had to be measured with a tape measure! 19 inches wide by 4" high, with a drop of 14".

All the sabots looked identical to the ones from Friday, near perfect opening, no damage. The 200 yd sabots were all in a 6' circle about 20 feet in front of the bench.

I'm not through messing with these sabots. But I'm through for now, I'll hunt with this load in this years season.

[Dixie Slugs]

We are all new to this BPI sabot, but from what I have seen done on Cast Boolits there is potential indeed. The point being is the folks here started from scratch and figured out the blown sabot's problems. Since Dixie is interested in a load for the hunting market, we must use the sabots themselves as they come from BPI....no cutting off the bases, etc. As all of you know that have been following this project....the single most important fact was/is to have a very firm wad column under the sabot!
Now....it looks to me that there are many designs of cast that can be used in the sabot ....as long as the shoulder/ogive of the bullet is up around .630" (at the tits in the petals)...even if some little nitros are used to build up the height. I really do not think it hurts if there are lube grooves or whatever on the bullet...and even leaving off the gas checks.
When the molds we have ordered come in and are tested...we will show photos ofwaht we fine...good or bad.
Again...I think the real potential here is the many types/designs of cast bullet that look like they can be used!
Great work, Team!
Regards, James

[44man]

Snuffy, I have been playing with the Lyman Sabot slug since it first came out. I can't get consistency no matter how I load, pressure, no pressure, new cases, fold crimp or roll crimp, all powders listed, soft lead, hard lead, etc.
Sometimes I would get 5 shots almost touching at 50 yd's, the next time they scatter all over.
The red wads get destroyed and that changes as the temperature does. If it is cold, they break up faster. Most look like a petal or two is run over by the slug, twisting the wad in the bore. Shot wads are just not strong enough.
I have bought every kind of wad from BP trying to get a firmer one without luck.
The Lee slug is also hard to get to work as is the Lyman full size slug and two sizes of round balls. There is just no predicting where they will go. I can't tell you the years I have been trying to load slugs and have NEVER had one shoot as good as the WW slugs. I bought the rifled Hastings and it has not made it any easier.
Wads blown into hollow bases, no matter how or what wads are made from, even a filler of every kind put in the hollow including resin and micro balloons did not make them accurate.
There is just nothing that can be bought that will equal factory slug loads and is why I am putting my faith in the BLS-12 sabot.
Like you, I have too much other work to do right now so I can't test for a while or cut any mold blocks. I have to cut cherries and size dies too.
Then the question of what the boolit should be shaped like!

[snuffy]

44 man, the AA red wads looked pretty good after firing. I was pleasantly surprised. I only wish I had taken the time to set up the chrono, then I'd have learned a bit more. Those were star crimped with about 30# of wad pressure applied before crimping. They don't list a roll crimped load for any of their sabot loadings, just the foster type.

I agree that the standard plastic wads are too soft to take the beating they receive carrying a sabot through a barrel. An idea I have is to try some steel shot wads. They are usually much harder/tougher, but also thicker. May be a future project!

Another idea is to anchor the barrel extension of that 870 barrel to the receiver. Via a screw through the receiver into the barrel extension. I did that on the smooth bore barrel, it seemed to make a difference. That MAY be the reason for the horizontal stringing I got.

Lots of ideas, damn little time left before I put it to work!

[44man]

I tried steel shot wads but the Lyman slug will need to be sized to fit. A future experiment.
My Hastings fits the receiver tight and I get no dispersion with the hammer head slugs at 100 yd's. Accuracy was amazing but since I don't hunt with the gun, I don't like to spend the money. This is only a fun game for me.
I think it was luck that the Red wads were OK when you shot. I have had it happen but not very often. Most of the time they are destroyed. Any time a wad is ruined, the accuracy is gone.
Please do more work with the Lyman, if something works, let me know.

[44man]

I tried some different gas wads this time. First I put a .060" LDPE wad in the bottom of the sabot. On top of that I put a disk cut from a .125" nitro card, to raise the 350 gr Hornady.
First I tried just the FS12 under the sabot in a 3" shell. That didn't work at all, the bullet going through all the wads.

However it worked better in the 2-3/4" shell and all gas seals were intact. One sabot has the LDPE and paper wad driven down into the cushion of the sabot and neither one recovered showed signs of the sabot opening. I had about a 2' pattern. It shows promise and might work with felt wads under the bullet for more cushion. It is the 5 gr difference in charge between the 3" and 2-3/4" that was easier on the load.

Then I tried a 1/4" hard card between the sabot and FS12 in the 3" shell. All of those were destroyed with the bullets almost making it through the gas seal.
I found a sabot at 55 yd's and one of the LDPE disks at 60 yd's.
None of the petals show any sign of taking the rifling even though I had a tight fit in the bore from the bullet pushing the tits.
I have one bullet left and have to wait until I buy or make a mold.
I put 80# of pressure on all loads without any damage to the cushion sections. I only have Clays powder and I reduced the loads for all shots. I suppose cutting the charge in the 3" shells to the 2-3/4" load and using more wads under the sabot might work better.
They are fun to shoot, kind of like shooting blanks!

[Red River Rick]

Interesting thread, lots of good information. Nice to see a few members here have tried a couple of various bullets with some positive results, but I’m thinking that a larger diameter bullet may help improve the accuracy.

The lack of any rifling engraved on some of the recovered sabots would lend me to believe that the bullets used for testing, in conjunction with the sabot, are/where to small to properly fill the bore. Therefore, contributing to the lack of good accuracy.

I have a Remington 870 Express, with a “Cantilever” fully rifled barrel and have been pondering the idea of loading some saboted rounds, which will be a lot cheaper than the factory rounds. The groove diameter on my barrel measures 0.727" - 0.728", and with this 0.510" diameter bullet, that'll make the assembled bullet/sabot measure at about the same diameter or slightly larger (which will be OK).

Based on the information posted earlier, I machined a mould to cast bullets for these new sabots. The bullet diameter is 0.510”, and drops out of the mould at 460 grains, cast in WW. I’m going to load a few rounds up using Blue Dot, starting out with 30 grains and then gradually increasing the load by 1 grain increments until signs of pressure present themselves. I have lots of different hulls, so I’ll try loading various makes and see what the results are.

If anyone is interested in this new bullet, you can send me a PM, I’ll pass on the specs.

RRR

[snuffy]

That's a nice looking boolit Rick, it should solve the problem of bullet/boolit fit inside the sabot. At least for the sabots available now. I suspect a BLS II will be forthcoming, with thicker petals to accommodate .500 J-word projectiles. Maybe even a thicker base of the cushion section as well. I suspect the dies for making a complicated plastic casting like this sabot are very expensive. Altering them might be less expensive, but there's no going back either.

I've given up on hunting with the shotgun this year, as the season starts Saturday. The last 2 range sessions produced flyers at all ranges, even after eliminating the old Tasco scope as a potential group wrecker. The new Nikon prostaff 2-7X32 didn't help. This was with the C501-440-RF lee boolit. Cast of 20-1 and 450 grains, it comes out at .502-.503.

I stuck a sabot in the barrel of the 870 cantilever, then put a ½ to ¾ snap gauge inside the sabot petal below the nibs. It measured .504-.505. So my boolits have about .002 clearance. NOT what you want for a sabot to impart spin and be consistent. My bore comes out a a nominal .729. If it were the other way around, as it would be with your boolits, THEN I would expect better groups.

Not having a machine shop at my disposal, I can't do much to alter or create a mold. I'd love to be able to punch the lube grooves and gascheck out of that lee mold to produce a cylinder like yours. Then a reamer to finish at a final size. Question, how much do you have to allow for shrinkage, in other words, what is your mold machined at? I may bug the local gunshop owner, he likes experiments AND casting boolits, he may work with me on a project like this. His Jet mill would work, all I need is a ½" drill and a reamer of the right size.

[Red River Rick]

Question, how much do you have to allow for shrinkage, in other words, what is your mold machined at?

Snuffy:

I machined the cavity to 0.5135" - 0.5140". Casting with W/W, the bullet drops out of the mould at 0.510" - 0.5105". I've loaded about 50 rounds, using Blue Dot. Started out at 30 grains and quit at 35 grs. I what to try them and see how well they group, velocity isn't important right now.

I"ll have to wait until the weekend before I get the chance to try these loads, I'll post my findings as soon as they're available.

RRR

[snuffy]

Thanks Rick, I did an ask.com search, got the MSC site for machine tools. They've got a reamer that should do the job set up in a mill.
http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CG...PMPXNO=1700338

.5118 is 13 mm, it should be able to enlarge the cavity in my lee mold without drilling first. From what I'm told by machinists at work, I can enlarge a hole by .010 without a problem, especially in aluminum.

Then there's this one, a bit closer to your diameter, and less expensive.
http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CG...PMPXNO=1700602

Is your mold aluminum? I wonder if the mold material makes a difference? Pure guessing right now, I should be getting packed and knives sharpened for leaving for the woods tomorrow.

[Red River Rick]

Snuffy:

I make all my moulds out of Dura-Bar 65-45-12 (ductile iron), its extruded, not cast and was designed for use in the mould making industry. It takes heat very well and lends itself well to very little or no warping or distorsion.

Check out: http://www.kbctools.com/usa/main.cfm

They have chucking reamers available in 0.001" increments, so looking for that special size shouldn't be a problem. I don't use a reamer or cherri cutter when cutting my moulds, I program my CNC mill, so machining a certain diameter isn't a problem.

I'll try to get a picture, of the mould I made for this new boolit, posted this evening, so you can see for yourself.

Leave the mould making for later, get your gear packed and concentrate on the task ahead of you, HUNTING. Good Luck!

RRR

[snuffy]

Well, here's what I came up with so far. I went to KBC tools, ordered a .514 reamer. Figuring .004 shrinkage. I reamed one cavity of this 2 cavity mold.





That's the 50 cal mold I was using before to cast for the sabots. So much for the good news. The mold casts at .514, using the 20-1 alloy. The mold measures .516, the reamer cut a little big. At that size, the bullets won't enter the bottom of the sabots. I may try some wheel weights to see if they shrink more. I see that lee has a push through sizer at .510. One is on the way, should get here tue.

Rick, how did yours shoot?

[Jim]

http://www.hastingsbarrels.com/choke.html