Is LBT Blue as good as Veral says it is? (Either Blue or the Blue Soft variety). He touts it as self cleaning, no leading, higher velocity at lower pressure, etc. Almost sounds too good to be true, but is it?
I've been using BAC and Carnuba Red, with good results, but I still get some leading, so I'm just curious.
I recently tested LBT Blue Soft against Javelina, Carnauba Red, BAC and 2700+ Lubes using the same bullet (311466) at 2600+ fps out of my .308W Palma barrel. The load was the same with the only variable being the Lube. The barrel was cleaned before each string and 2 foulers fired before the test string. The sting was then tested using an Oehler M43 PBL to record velocities and pressures.
The LBT Blue Soft did give the lowest pressure by 200 psi (psi's ran from 46,400 through 47,200 psi - a spread of only 800 psi for the five lubes). It's velocity was in the middle of the pack. There was no leading from any of the lubes except BAC which showed some minor leading toward the muzzle. Group size for the LBT Blue Soft lube was consistant with all but one of the other lubes. BAC produced groups almost twice as large as the others (note; BAC is not advertised for HV applications). Additional tests with 2 other bullets using the LBT Blue Soft in 4 other rifles (2 other .308s with a 10 and 12" twists and two '06s with 10" twists) show no consistent improvement over Javelina, Carnauba Red or 2700+.
My conclusion is; I'd use all the lubes except BAC for high velocity loads without reservations. All performed equally well without leading.
Larry Gibson
Larry, ever tried speed green?
Crabo
Do not argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
While my experience is nowhere near as comprehensive as Larry's, I've been using Blue Soft (I think) for about 2 years and I am delighted with it.
The reason I say I think is because although I ordered soft, I wonder if Veral sent me regular Blue by mistake. Although it does flow without heat, it seems pretty stiff for something called "soft." Living in the Northeast, I generally give it just a bit of heat to get started.
No matter, I use it for all my rifle shooting, including plainbase bullets in the .30 carbine at@1800 fps, with no appreciable leading. It goes without saying the gascheck bullets do fine too.
Larry is right. LBT lubes are good and so are most of Lar's lubes. Since I only shoot handguns, I can say the same applies. Anything with alox will open my groups with any of my revolvers. It might prevent leading but when a lube also prevents accuracy, I don't use it.
LLA will lead my bores along with opening groups to 3X normal. I think bare boolits would do better.
I don't like a hard lube and CR and LBT Blue are borderline for what I do yet they still show accuracy.
I tried some Lyman Orange Magic once. It was magical the way it broke out of some lube grooves while sticking in other boolits OK. Just too hard.
Some guys like alox, some demand it but I don't know why??
You would do better softening beeswax with safflower oil. The burn point is a lot higher. Add some lanolin to make it sticky.
You just have to get away from the idea that just preventing leading is not the answer. A small amount of leading will not hurt a thing as long as it is continually shot out and does not build up.
If you shoot 200 shots and a few strands of lead come out on the patch, you do not have a problem.
44 Man, So, in the end what lube do you use in your handguns? I know you shoot some pretty fantastic groups at long range, and would appreciate that input.
Larry, Thanks so much for the detailed response! I tried a "blue" hard lube, and didn't care for it. My accuracy tests with handguns, and rifles at lower (under 2000 fps) showed a strong advantage to the RCBS pistol, or rifle soft lubes. I'm just starting to bump my velocities upwards in my rifle loads, and am low on lube, so these responses are timely!
Well, I have done a fair amount of lube testing over the years. And each time I get different results. But I will list some of the common denominators that I have found.
Lube quantity and location is a deciding factor to evaluating lubes which is why it is different for everybody. How much does a design hold? This is key. It's not how much it holds at the sized diameter. Its what it holds at your bore diameter and after your rifling engraves it. This can dramatically diminish capacity which is why Loverin designed his bullets as he did. Less lube dependency at a time of poorer quality lubes.
Lube requirement and quality is dictated by hardness and bore condition and pressure.
I find it very educational to have a bore size sizer just to see with my own eyes what is happening. This was a very BIG negative for a resent test I was running with a 311291. This bullet was lube starved at .308 diameter after my ultimate sizer finished with it.
A bullet with a hardness in excess of what is required (make sure you understand I am not advocating hard bullets) can use less and lesser quality lube. Often using less lube will improve results as the excess lube acts as a fouling so all results are skewed. The powder choice can also change the requirement of the lube from preventing obturation to preventing galling where you will need more lubrication. Once you go above that hardness point, as long as temperature doesn't swing one way or another, you might not notice a lot of lube difference.
The better your bore condition is also a big factor that is very complex and doesn't always work out as expected. But the trend I see is that a smoother bore puts less requirements on a lube so less difference will be seen. And bore condition changes throughout a rifles life. But rate of fire can cause problems also which is the biggest obstacle to high shot group accuracy as bore condition and fouling changes during the string.
Temperature and particularly extremes, will make a HUGE difference on lube and lube requirements. Most of my problems is in the winter using marginal hardness for hunting with lubes that thicken in the bore. Humidity also plays a role in how it affect bore condition.
So if you look at how varied we are as a group in what we shoot, how we shoot, what temperature we do most of our work, you get a better idea of why we launch things differently. So we what we see.
Bottomline is that you have to test 365 days before you can REALLY be sure of what you have.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
I like alox lubes. Not the lee tumble lube but lubes like javalina. Are they better then some of the higher tech lubes. I dont know. I go with Bass. Ive tested them all and every time the results are differnt. I can run felix 5050 alox and lbt side by side one day and one will win and do it again a month from now and another will win. Im one that preaches harder bullets in combination with a GOOD gun. All of my handguns have chambers that are the correct size and many have match barrels and if they dont the barrels have been lapped. Bottom line is ive never saw where any lube hands down is more accurate then another. My guns are all good enough that i dont have any leading problems. John linebaugh preaches that its more the conditioning of your bore with a certain lube that brings accuracy rather then the brand of lube you are using and I think theres something to that. He says it takes at least 50 rounds with a new lube to get the barrel used to it and only then will a gun settle down and shoot well. This could explain why my results change all the time. Anymore i never touch a brush to a barrel. At the most ill run a patch with oil on it down the barrel if im not going to use the gun for a long time. Accuracy will definately change after you brush out a barrel. If i owned a gun that leaded i would either fix it or sell it. By saying my guns dont lead im not saying theres never lead in the barrel. What im saying is it never builds up enough to effect accuracy. If what John says IS true then testing lubes properly would be a pretty drawn out deal and i dont have time for it.
Larry Gibson, what are the bore and groove dimensions on your palma rifle, mine are .3065 - .298. Also what alloy are you using and what are you sizing the boolits to and the final weight. Might be some thing to try in my palma rifle.
No I have not. No particular reason other than what I use (mostly Javelina) "ain't broke" so I don't fix it. I've heard some good reports on Speed Green though.Originally Posted by crabo
Larry Gibson
I've found the same as about the preference for soft lubes. This is why I most always use Javelina through out the broad spectrum of velocities I shoot cast bullets at. I shoot soft lead to a low of 230 fps and other alloys up through 2400 fps. I agree with Lloyd about what John (Bass) says; My test results of recent and my experience over some years shows the lubes mentioned all give pretty much the same results and I don't have the time nor see the necessity of a 365 day long quest for something that probably isn't there.
One caveat though; most cast bullet shooters on't get up into the realm of high veocity because of the accuracy issues. Most often mentioned to me is the sometimes boring attention to detail required to get accuracy at high velocity (generally 2000-2400 fps). Most would just as soon cast the bullets, lube and seat the GC, load and go shoot and a 1500-1900 fps load with 2-3 moa accuracy is fine with them. Most of us who delve into the higher velocity realm up through 2400 fps have found ways to make that happen with some accuracy. However, once we get over about 2500 fps it seems to be another ball game. In this area the harder lubes such as LBT Blue Soft (I don't find it all that "soft" either), Carnauba Red and 2700+ and perhaps a couple others may perform better than the softer lubes like Javelina. I'm still testing in that velocity area and have not reached a conclusion yet. Doubt it will take me 365 days though.
Larry Gibson
The dimensions of my Palma barrel (Shultz & Larson) is a little on the large side. It has been lapped and is one of the smoothest barrels I have ever seen (using a Hawkeye bore scope). Groove is .3088" and bore is .3009".
I'm using a Lyman 311466 Lovern mould. My high velocity alloys are 60/40 WW/linotype or straight linotype. I air cool them for consistency. The BHN of the WW/lino is 16-18 and the straight linotype is 22-24 BHN. It does well up through 2500 fps but the straight linotype does better above 2600 fps. The bullets drop out just a shade over .314". I seat GCs with the GC seating tool on the Lyman 450. I then lightly spray the bullets with Billon case lube and push them through a .314" Lee sizer. I then lube them in the 450 with a .314" H die before any other sizing. I then size down not more than .002" at a time to whatever diameter I want with Lee push through sizers.
In my recent tests I shot 10 shot groups (barrel cleaned between strings and 2 foulers shot before string) at 2500+ fps with bullets sized .308, .309, .310, .311, .312 and .314". The .311" sized bullet shot the best group. I have subsequently shot 3 more 10 shot strings with that .311" sized bullet and that load to confirm it shoots the best. Thus I use the 311466 bullets sized .311" in the Palma barrel.
Larry Gibson
This lube thing is something that concerned me with working up loads in Texas heat and then going to North Dakota to deer hunt. I used speed green because I have beeswax and sprueplate lube. Bullshop says it works in Alaska, so that is good enough for me.
Crabo
Do not argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
thats one thing that ive had problems with using javalina and felix lube. I store ALOT of bullets ready to go and have grabbed a box that are lubed with them and found the lube had melted off. Now i live in nothern michigan and we only have a month or two of real hot weather so i would think down there in texas javalina just wouldnt work. What i do now with my felix lube is mix in about 1/4 hard lube like magma blue. Its was good way to get rid of it. I was given about 50 sticks and that stash is about gone.
Lloyd, have you tried Lars BAC lube?
Extreme cold weather has an adverse effect on most lubes alright. I found years ago that with Lyman's old graphite lube that the first 2-3 shots would be flyers until the barrel warmed up if the temp was in the mid 30's or lower. When I lived in NE Oregon hunting coyotes and shooting jack rabbits sometimes would occur with temps from -5 degrees up through the low teens. I found with cast bullets using any beeswax based lube or hard commercial lubes that the first 2-3 shots out of a cold (ambient temp cold) clean barrel were going to be radical flyers. One the barrel warmed a bit and the barrel was lube fouled accuracy was normal. With a fouled cold barrel the first round would also be a flyer. I surmised this was due to the lube reside in the cold barrel getting extremely hard. I don't generally have that problem where I live now (NW Washington) as the temps are pretty moderate. If I move back to such a cold weather location I would definately be interested in giving speed green a try. Do you make your own?
Larry Gibson
My apologies to yonderling, I might be hijacking your thread regarding LBT lube. If a problem let me know and I'll start a new thread with crabo?
With respect to yonderling, I think the addition of speed green to the discussion of lubes, would be helpful. I have learned so much from the more experienced here and how they evauluate products and techniques, that I will throw this in.
Speed green is one of the easiest lubes to make. You simply melt 3 parts of beeswax and add in one part of Bullshop sprueplate lube. This is a weight measurement and not a liquid measurement.
3 to 1 by weight, beeswax to Bull Plate, so one 2 oz bottle of Bull Plate mixed with 6 oz beeswax will yield 1/2 lb Speed Green boolit lube. I did 12oz and 2 bottles.
This was the only tricky part. I had trouble finding a scale to weigh my beeswax blocks, so I sent my wife to the grocery store and she weighed it there. (actually, she was going anyway) I did find a scale in the lobby of one of the post offices here that I can use next time.
I originally melted my beeswax in the hot Texas sun, and poured in the bullplate. It mixes very easily with the melted wax, kinda like coolaid. I stirred it with a mixing stick and let it cool.
Now I had a loaf pan of speed green. I tried cutting it into slivers and putting that in my Star. That didn't work too well. I got the heat gun and tried to soften it to compress it. Didn't work very well either and I got a lot of air pockets.
At this point, I am thinking I need to get some sort of tube setup to pour the liquid lube in to have a better way to handle the lube. That seemed like a hassel, so I shaved some off and put it in a pyrex glass cup and put it in the microwave.
I used about a 60% heat rating and slowly melted the lube again. I then took the liquid speed green and poured it into the sizer. That took care of the air pockets.
Note to self: Wait until the lube cools and turns solid before you insert the spring. Otherwise you will squirt lube across the room from the airhole!
Here's what Dan told me about making sticks of lube.
"Here is a tip to make your lube sticks eject easily from the mold. Swab the molds with cold dish water before each pour. I use Dawn dish soap with a 12 gauge brush wrapped with a cloth patch. Don’t worry about the water it will evaporate. This method makes mine about fall out of their own weight. I don’t use pvc but copper instead. Don’t know if it will make a difference. I think having the tubes cold and wet is the trick.
Exact recipe is 3 to 1 by weight bee's wax to bull plate.
12 oz wax to 4 oz bp = 1lb speed green lube
I add .5 oz alox per lb speed green to aid the release of sticks from the mold.
I also add .5 oz Dr. tranny assembly goo(from napa)per lb speed green to aid the flow from lube sizers without heat.
The additives are not needed for the speed green lube to handle high pressure. They just aid in the handling of the lube. The bull plate is what does the magic."
I find that a light bulb is all the heat I need. I might try some transmission goo the next time I do this.
So there you have it. One man's saga of the speedgreen experience. I would really be interested in how it works with rifle velocities. I would bet that it does.
Last edited by crabo; 10-11-2008 at 07:37 PM.
Crabo
Do not argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
no i havent but it should be a great lube. A little harder then 5050 but still soft enough to work. I have used some of his carduba lube and it was a good lube too and would probably be my go to lube if i ever bought lube again. Ive got some much crap ive accumulated to make lube that i should be set about for life.
I learned in a hurry when testing .22 LR guns with different ammo that you had to condition the bore with each brand before you could get a representative group of what that brand was capable of. Since the main difference between plain lead .22 bullets is the lube what folks are saying about the bore being conditioned by the lube makes sense.
I have a small sample of Carnuba Red and BAC from Lars, but have not tried them yet. I still have Felix lube in my sizer. I tried LBT Blue several years ago and it works well, but the last I knew it was about $4.00 per stick and from what everyone says Lars lubes work great., and is much less expensive. IMO, Felix WFL is the best I have ever used- so far. Of course, that's handguns only, I don't cast for high speed rifles.
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