Grease Grooves

[smokemjoe]

I am paper patching mauser 446110 bullet up to .456 for my Wenrdl. Should I grease the groove or not, What happen to the grooves without lub. when the bullet upsets. Thanks- Joe

[docone31]

I size the Lee C312/185R mold to .308.
The grease grooves are almost gone.
I do not gas check, nor do I grease. So far, I have not lubed the patch either.
I have noticed, when the paper shrinks when drying, the grooves can be seen with the patch.
I have not noticed any loss of performance with not greaseing.
I will be sizing my next batch. I plan on using a little JPW on the unsized wrap, then sizing to .314. I have been using unsized .3135 without lube. The sample I tried with the JPW, the sized paper patch was shiney, not slippery. The paper remained wrapped and intact.
The original size was .318 wrapped.
What I would do, is to load 20 lubed, not the grease groove, but the paper, and 20 unlubed. See what it does.
When I load my .303 British, I use Lee start data for jacketed. With the loose patched boolitts, I get 3" at 100yds. I am hoping I will get into the 1" with .005 thicker. I size to .308 for a .304 bore.
Others will pipe in, and someone hopefully has patched your caliber. I was really helped by Beemer who also wraps .303 British. I got a jump start.
When I size unlubed, I use dish soap. After sizing, I rinse in scalding water. No residue I have noticed.
Great luck, and great shooting!

[bcp477]

I think that the jury is still out as regards whether lubing patched bullets provides better accuracy (than unlubed). After patching, I brush on one coat of Lee Liquid Alox, myself. There is some concern, with longtime use of bleached papers for patching, that the inherent abrasive qualities of such paper will cause excessive barrel wear. So, I lube as a precaution.

As for applying lube in the grease grooves BEFORE patching.....do NOT do this. I experimented with this ...and accuracy definitely suffers, probably due to the lube causing the patch to adhere to the bullet.

[beemer]

Can't really say what happens. I have always greased the paper patch after it is wraped. I tried running it through the lube sizer and tried the allox-beeswax but Buckshot recommended LLA,it works better for me. The LLA coats and lubes but does not saturate the patch. The paper does not stick to the boolit and seems to come off clean. You can see the confetti fly out of the muzzle. The paper works like a sabot in a muzzle loader.

If you have to size the boolit before wrapping don't leave any greasy lube on it or the paper will stick.

beemer

[longbow]

If the boolit alloy is hard enough to suit the load, obturation should not cause it to collapse at the grease grooves.

Having said that I have shot Lyman 429421 grease groove boolits (not paper patched) with relatively hot loads and they have collapsed at the grease groove. These were lubed ACWW over Blue Dot and not really radical loads but they collapsed at the grease groove.

I have had no other boolit fail in that way, paper patched or otherwise. I think that due to the large grease groove in the Keith boolit there was just too little area left to resist the pressure. A harder alloy would have helped for that load but obviously the lube did not support the boolit.

Anyway, you wouldn't be lubing before wrapping so the grooves would not be full of lube regardless. I haven't bothered to lube my paper patched boolits for .44 mag, .308. or .303 British and have gotten pretty good results so far.

Others may have some info on whether lube helps accuracy or not but I am thinking that the main purpose would be waterproofing.

Longbow

[45 2.1]

I am paper patching mauser 446110 bullet up to .456 for my Wenrdl. Should I grease the groove or not, I wouldn't. What happen to the grooves without lub. when the bullet upsets. That depends on your alloy and how much bump the load provides. My 300 gr. 4570 loads are pure lead to about top trapdoor levels and the lube grooves collapse. This has cased no problems with load, pressure or accuracy for me either.

[pdawg_shooter]

I lube after patching. Right now I am using BAC but over the years I have found most anything will work. The lube reduces friction and therefore wear on the rifling. I also helps to waterproof the bullets for hunting loads. I cast, size to bore dia. +.001/.0015, patch and let dry. Then I trim the tails, lube and run through a push through die to remove excess lube. I have bullets treated this way that have been on the shelf for years and they load and shoot fine. Pure lead can be loaded to about 2200fps, 50/50 to about 2600fps, and pure LT, well I haven found a velocity limit yet on pure LT.

[smokemjoe]

Okey , What is JPW and BAC for sizing grease, My alloy is 1-24, want it to bump up to .457 when its fired, I patched 20 last night and patched at .457 and going to size them to. 456 to ture them up. .456 is what they fi t the throat at.I heard a few years ago about using titebond glue for patching. I mixed it up with 1/2 water, Today the patchs are dried tight to the bullets, Have anyone of yous used this. My grooves in this old gun are very deep, Will it shoot a paper parch? , Thanks for the help. Joe

[pdawg_shooter]

JPW=Johnson paste wax.
BAC=A bullet lube from White Label Lube. A mix of bees wax, alox, and carnuba wax. DO NOT glue the paper to your bullets. The paper must come off the bullet when it leaves the barrel or accuracy wil suffer.

[bcp477]

Just as pdawg says, do NOT glue the paper to your bullets. If you are using the glue/ water mix to wet your patches before rolling them on, this will most likely be detrimental to accuracy (too much adhesion of the patch to the bullet). Plain water ONLY should be used to wet patches. If you wish, you can seal the edge of your patches with a tiny bit of white or yellow glue, to produce a more sturdy finished product. I use a bit of yellow glue for this myself - but, be SURE that the glue does not get on the bullet. White or yellow glue won't permanently adhere paper to metal, or anything like that, but any interference with the patch being able to strip off the bullet as it leaves the muzzle WILL decrease accuracy.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have also found it helps to choose a powder that will give you as close to 100% load density as possible. Dont know why, maybe the slower pressure spike lessens distortion of the bullet. All I know is it helps with accuracy.

[smokemjoe]

Thanks for the tip, Last night i put that glue on 30 bullets.Well I am goneing to shoot them anyway. I loaded them with 13 gr. Unique and going to use them in a offhand match Sat. at the castbullet assc. match, Cant hit nothing off hand anyway. Thanks for all the help, I got alot to learn about PP. Joe

[docone31]

Joe, I do not know much about your cartridge. I can say however, I made more mistakes than anyone here!
Sizing, wrapped backwards, lots of stuff.
I am now, getting more and more comfortable with paper patching. I can really see advantages to it.
With paper patching, I can outshoot factory in my Smelly. The factory comes .311, and I am going to size to .314. I got some .312 to try when I get some more brass.
I have only used water to wrap with. I have had no seperation issues once I wrapped them as they should have been.
I had read about using either egg white, or real thin Elmers glue. I have so far not needed that.
Now, I am using a cigarette roller, not a board. I dip my patches, and while still dripping I roll them. When they come out, they are moist and laid down pretty tightly.
I have seen some serious results with paper patching. It sounds like you are on the road to really get there. Main thing, fire those off! That will be the first step. You will learn more in those few rounds than any reading, or writing.
I sure know what it felt like when I fired my first 20.
I got 20ft groups, but, I fired my own paper patches in a .303 British!!!
It doesn't get better than that.
I am working on 1" at 100yds with paper patching now. Took a few rounds to find the size, but I think I found it.
Great luck at the shoot, and have fun!
You might even meet some patchers there.

[kodiak1]

When I paper patch Grease Grovers I always size them and lube them, Then paper patch and load with grease cookie to much lube is better than not enough in my little world.
Ken.

[docone31]

Ken,
I am curious, do you apply the patch wet, or dry roll?
Right now, I am doing them through the bore dry. I want the abrasion to make the bore smooth.
In time, I plan on lightly JPWing the patch. Essentially enough to pass through the sizing die.
I agree with the grease cookie. That would at the least make a good initial seal upon firing.
My first 19, I had a crimp in the shoulder of #20, I had lightly smeared 400 lapping compound on the exposed paper. The patch was a little loose to bore also. My .303 British likes .314, I had .3135 to shoot off. The grit actually tightened up the group untill the barrel heated up.
I had hammer marks all the way through the bore. Those 19 really cleaned up the marks and it appears to the eye, sharpened the rifleing.
Once I get smooth shiney, I do plan on lubing the patch. At least a little. If for nothing else, weather protection.

[smokemjoe]

Ken; Thats sound like a good idea, well I shot them 20 rds. today in a off hand match,11.15X58 wenrdl, I kept them all in a 8 in. circle, had others in the white but they were regular loading, The trigger pull about 25 lbs. so alot in that, I made a bullet board to roll the bullets on, Would your ciggatte roller work with a 45 cal. bullet and where do you get one. 303 paper patch bullets, Thats sound awful small to me but that may be next for me with the Herter Wasp lead bullet. Let me hear more form you fellows, got 3- 43 spanish rollers and 2 sharps to get going sometime, Thanks- Joe

[docone31]

A spanish rolley? Way cool. I had a Sharps. Being left handed they were interesting feeling.
I wanna rolley next. I can see a nice .405 Winchester.
On the cigarette roller. I am not sure the small plastic ones would work in that caliber. I cannot fit my .45ACP cating through the opening. I tried it just to get a size reference.
I wonder, however, if one might be made to fit that size casting. Someone handy with tools could make one once they had a plastic one to scale up. The bib could also be used.
It sounds like your patching worked. Did they shine up the bore like they did with my Smelly?
Hey, you did it! How does that feel?
I have a feeling my use of the roller is indeed different from a board. The bib compresses the patch. Beemer is getting a slightly larger diameter with the same sizing and final sizing die that I use. I think the roller is compressing my loads. It is fast with a roller though. I put the wet patch on, drop on the casting, roll, remove, twist tail, and do another.
Through final sizing, I watched my groups go from 20t at 100yds to 3" at 100yds. I am going full power on the loads also.
Joe, good for you! I hope you had a ball.
25lb trigger pull! That sounds like a Yuppie safety device. All you need is an arrow and notice the bullet exits this end.
Just kidding.
I suspect, a cigarette roller can roll some real small castings. For larger, you would have to make one. some sheet metal, the rollers from the plastic one. Or, just open up the holes in the side of the machine to fit the .45.
You can get them at smoke shops, convience stores, the internet. They cost about 3$.
Great shooting!!!!
Now, we will see some tuning, then hear the results. I swear, paper patching is the way to go.

[kodiak1]

I dry roll them on when I use a lubed grease groove. Have been thinking about putting on a wet patch and trying it that way.

Ken.

[pdawg_shooter]

I don lube my bullets before patching simply because I dont want ANYTHING that may cause the paper to stick to the bullet. I patch wet, let dry, and then lube and run through a push through die.

[docone31]

Last night I sized prior to patching, cut patches, wet and applied 50 patched castings.
Today, I will apply JPW, and push thru size.
I also do not let sticky stuff touch the sized casting. I use the Lee .303 British 185gn as a start. What is left of the grease grooves I believe holds the paper from sliding backwards on sizing, and firing. I have never had a complete patch exit the muzzle. I have not found paper on the berm either.
I had one being sized last night that instead of going thru the sizer, mushroomed at the base. I had to drive it out base first. Only one in a long time.
The push thru sizer seems to wipe the JPW so only a shadow remains.
Makes the patch shiney.